# "ACORN did absolutely nothing wrong" no longer true **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 6, 2011, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467 "2011-04-06T23:23:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/241 "2011-04-07T16:16:01Z")
Let’s mention something here: I remarked on the Nevada investigation in [this ACORN thread.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=558457) In it there was a divide developing between those posters who thought ACORN had become lax in its procedures (I was in this camp - this was about as far as I went in my criticisms) and a bunch of wackjobs like **Diogenes** , **gonzomax** and **elucidator** who either were in complete denial or were reduced to muttering nonsense because one of their oxen had been gored. This particular piece of news isn’t going to sway **Diogenes** , and while normal people could take it in context in the general ACORN discussion, this does not make much of a difference either in general opinion or in the grand scheme of things now. If something were to come up later concerning an ACORN officer this information would be highly relevant. It just seems like a footnote now. I wouldn’t have started a thread about it. Some things you have to just let go. **Bricker** might win this little tournament, but I doubt it. His only opponents are intellectual windmills. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/242 "2011-04-07T16:17:34Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Before I go digging up cites, I want to know if it’s going to make any difference to you. In other words, you want me to debate honestly with you. A favor you have yet to extend to me. You still insist that ACORN’s guilty plea was to a contrived crime, by a partisan prosecutor. You debate honestly with me, and I’ll return the favor. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/243 "2011-04-07T16:17:49Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I’m saying that “ACORN submitted fradulent voter registrations” is something that a reasonable debater ought to concede here, even though they didn’t plead guilty to doing it, because every grownup knows they did it. This, from someone who claims he used to practice law. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/244 "2011-04-07T16:19:16Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > In other words, you want me to debate honestly with you. > > A favor you have yet to extend to me. > > You still insist that ACORN’s guilty plea was to a contrived crime, by a partisan prosecutor. > > You debate honestly with me, and I’ll return the favor. [My name]This is what we call “taking the high road”.[/My name] ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/245 "2011-04-07T16:20:45Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Before we dig up the cites, please tell us how you’re going to respond when we do. I’ll read the cites, see if they support my position, and crow loudly if they do. If they don’t, I’ll obfuscate, change the meaning of what I was saying and claim that’s what I meant all along, reinvent my own peculiar meanings for common English words and act indignant when you claim alternate meanings exist, and refuse to be swayed by anything you post. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/246 "2011-04-07T16:25:38Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And (2) that ACORN did nothing illegal. The quote in the OP is that ACORN did nothing wrong. You’ve proved they admitted to doing something illegal. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/247 "2011-04-07T16:27:53Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I’ll read the cites, see if they support my position, and crow loudly if they do. > > If they don’t, I’ll obfuscate, change the meaning of what I was saying and claim that’s what I meant all along, reinvent my own peculiar meanings for common English words and act indignant when you claim alternate meanings exist, and refuse to be swayed by anything you post. For a few pages. Then you might step back in self-reflection and offer a partial acknowledgement as to your being in error. Typically, only after we’ve gotten to the other side of the knothole. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/248 "2011-04-07T16:29:59Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > This, from someone who claims he used to practice law. “Claims?” I have eleven years worth of output on this board and SDSAB articles relating to criminal law issues. There are plenty of other attorneys here who can have had eleven years to assess the accuracy of what I’ve written. Is it really plausible that this output could be offered up by someone who didn’t practice criminal law? ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/249 "2011-04-07T16:30:05Z")
Jesus christ, **Bricker** , I expect better from you. This is the equivalent of saying “‘O.J. Simpson did absolutely nothing wrong’ no longer true” and then linking to a story about him getting a speeding ticket. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/250 "2011-04-07T16:30:59Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > The quote in the OP is that ACORN did nothing wrong. You’ve proved they admitted to doing something illegal. _sigh_ ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/251 "2011-04-07T16:32:03Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Jesus christ, **Bricker** , I expect better from you. > > This is the equivalent of saying “‘O.J. Simpson did absolutely nothing wrong’ no longer true” and then linking to a story about him getting a speeding ticket. Yes, and if someone had monomaniacally insisted that OJ had never broken a single law, that speeding ticket story would be a relevant rebuttal, wouldn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/252 "2011-04-07T16:32:11Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Thanks! > > Now, you ask an interesting question. > > Is this going to be one of those “Cite?” games or is it an honest question? > > From [here.](http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/04/06/acorn-pleads-guilty-voter-registration-fraud-nevada/) > > So part of the prosecution’s offer of proof would have been the fradulent voter registrations submitted. But a guilty plea does not admit each and every fact alleged by the prosecution; it just admits guilt to each element of the offense. > > So I suppose you could argue that ACORN did not technically admit to voter registratgion fraud. > > But I base my statement on the fact that ACORN submitted fraudulent voter registration forms. > > Are you going to claim that ACORN didn’t do that? ACORN was legally required to submit the registration forms they received. The person that filled them out committed voter registration fraud, not ACORN. If ACORN had refused to submit them that would have been illegal (but not wrong). Also note, this isn’t even close to voter fraud, which would be if some how ACORN went as Tony Ramano and voted [D] 100 times. The crime ACORN admitted to was paying people improperly for voter registration. Note that it’s okay to pay people for voter registration, but not the way ACORN did it. Also note that it has nothing to do with fraudulent registration forms. If all the forms had been correct the act of paying per form was a violation of state law. Note also that several states allow paying per registration. That’s where the line gets blurry, it’s Nevada law that says you can’t pay people that way. Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t it pretty typical for a national company/organization to have a standard policy that they later find isn’t allowed in a particular jurisdiction. The result being that they plead guilty and pay the fine? Fedex might have a policy to always park on the same side of the street so as not to cross traffic, seems some what reasonable. Then they find out in Minnesota you can’t park there the second day after a snow storm. Which reminds me, I plead guilty to parking on the wrong side of the street, so don’t let anyone say, “Emacknight did absolutely nothing wrong.” ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/253 "2011-04-07T16:35:20Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Before we dig up the cites, please tell us how you’re going to respond when we do. I don’t know how **Bricker** will respond. You will simply repeat yourself. Look, everybody who wasn’t a complete partisan moron has known for years that ACORN is an organization who is willing to break the law and commit morally reprehensible acts for the partisan advantage of the left wing. it’s obvious. It was obvious when they got caught covering up bribery, it was obvious when they got caught assisting pimps, it was obvious when they got caught committing registration fraud, it is obvious now that they have been convicted as a group. What is equally obvious is the fact that you, and a lot of other people, are simply not capable of debate in good faith. You know all that stuff about how you and the Usual Suspects occupy the moral high ground, and your positions are always fact-based, and how you are really committed to justice and fair-mindedness? It’s lies. You don’t really believe anything like that. Now you can certainly deny it, and you will, over and over. The thing is, that doesn’t change anything. It’s still true. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/254 "2011-04-07T16:35:46Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > The crime ACORN admitted to was paying people improperly for voter registration. Note that it’s okay to pay people for voter registration, but not the way ACORN did it. **Also note that it has nothing to do with fraudulent registration forms. If all the forms had been correct the act of paying per form was a violation of state law.** I’d like to see a specific response to the bolded portion here, **Bricker**. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/255 "2011-04-07T16:39:32Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes, and if someone had monomaniacally insisted that OJ had never broken a single law, that speeding ticket story would be a relevant rebuttal, wouldn’t it? Just to tie this hypothetical in with the original: If OJ was driving from California into Nevada going 65mph, and a cop pulls him over and says, “it’s 55 on this side of the line.” OJ did in fact violate Nevada law. So why would anyone go through the trouble of bringing up a speeding ticket in a murder trial? Isn’t this a logical fallacy? Trying to attack an obvious hyperbole with a completely minor and unrelated fact? If OJ was on trial for reckless endangerment and vehicular manslaughter driving violations might seem some what relevant. Furthermore, if at the trial OJ had yet to plead guilty to the speeding violation, it makes you look like a douche to bring it up before before it’s settled. At the time OJ had yet to be guilty of a speeding violation. Now you’re going to back after the fact to say, “ah HA, you were wrong back then because now he plead guilty.” ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/256 "2011-04-07T16:42:01Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > _sigh_ Well, then, since you think wrong==illegal, then I guess the next time you say abortion is wrong, we can point out that you are lying. Nobody with a functioning brain thinks “wrong” means “illegal.” Everyone but you knew what **Dio** was saying. I do tons of illegal stuff nearly every day, but I do nothing wrong. (I use NO CD Hacks, if you must know. The DMCA makes those illegal.) I’ll say it, too. “ACORN did nothing wrong.” Seeing as you admit you posted this thread to stir up liberals (in GD where that isn’t allowed), and I happen to believe it’s true, I can do the same to you. It’s not against the rules of the pit, so it isn’t wrong. On preview: Shut the hell up Shodan. **Bricker** is the one debating dishonestly, claiming words mean one thing when they mean another. And again, he created a fucking troll thread. He started the whole thing dishonestly, putting a poorly disguise pit thread into GD. Again, this is objectively true because the mods, the lawmakers of this board, say it was a Pit thread. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/257 "2011-04-07T16:42:33Z")
Here are some statutes for you, \*\* Bricker\*\*: [Nevada](http://www.leg.state.nv.us/NRS/NRS-293.html#NRS293Sec505): > [@](#): > > “any … person providing a form for the application to register to vote to an elector for the purpose of registering to vote … [s]hall not alter, deface or destroy an application to register to vote that has been signed by an elector except to correct information contained in the application after receiving notice from the elector that a change in or addition to the information is required.” Violators are “guilty of a category E felony.” A “Guide to Conducting Voter Registration Drives” authored by Nevada Secretary of State Ross Miller further states, "When the registration drive is complete, all forms, both completed and uncompleted, must be returned to the respective county clerk. [Ohio](http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/3599.11): > [@](#): > > No person who helps another person register outside an official voter registration place shall knowingly fail to return any registration form entrusted to that person to any board of elections or the office of the secretary of state within ten days after that registration form is completed, or on or before the thirtieth day before the election, whichever day is earlier, unless the registration form is received by the person within twenty-four hours of the thirtieth day before the election, in which case the person shall return the registration form to any board of elections or the office of the secretary of state within ten days of its receipt. [Forida](http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?mode=View%20Statutes&SubMenu=1&App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=voter+registration&URL=0000-0099/0097/Sections/0097.0575.html): > [@](#): > > A third-party voter registration organization that collects voter registration applications serves as a fiduciary to the applicant, ensuring that any voter registration application entrusted to the third-party voter registration organization, irrespective of party affiliation, race, ethnicity, or gender shall be promptly delivered to the division or the supervisor of elections. If a voter registration application collected by any third-party voter registration organization is not promptly delivered to the division or supervisor of elections, the third-party voter registration organization shall be liable for the following fines: > (a) A fine in the amount of $50 for each application received by the division or the supervisor of elections more than 10 days after the applicant delivered the completed voter registration application to the third-party voter registration organization or any person, entity, or agent acting on its behalf. A fine in the amount of $250 for each application received if the third-party registration organization or person, entity, or agency acting on its behalf acted willfully. > (b) A fine in the amount of $100 for each application collected by a third-party voter registration organization or any person, entity, or agent acting on its behalf, prior to book closing for any given election for federal or state office and received by the division or the supervisor of elections after the book closing deadline for such election. A fine in the amount of $500 for each application received if the third-party registration organization or person, entity, or agency acting on its behalf acted willfully. > (c) A fine in the amount of $500 for each application collected by a third-party voter registration organization or any person, entity, or agent acting on its behalf, which is not submitted to the division or supervisor of elections. A fine in the amount of $1,000 for any application not submitted if the third-party registration organization or person, entity, or agency acting on its behalf acted willfully. A [mediamatters](http://mediamatters.org/research/200810140010) article specifically about the “Mickey Mouse” registration: Most every state has these laws, and I could find every single relevant one, if you insist. If you can find a state which does _not_ have this requirement, and where ACORN still knowingly submitted fraudulent forms, then you’d have something. As it stands, I have cited that both the specific state of Nevada, where you are currently alleging ACORN submitted fraudulent forms and the state of Florida - the sate of the infamous “Mickey Mouse” registration, both legally require that third party registration organizations turn in all registrations, no matter what, or face fines. ACORN did the only thing they could legally do, which was to flag the suspcious registrations and submit them as were. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/258 "2011-04-07T16:43:02Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Cite? [Nevada guide to conducting voter registration drives](http://nvsos.gov/Modules/ShowDocument.aspx?documentid=1399) > [@](#): > > The applications do not become the property of those who apply for and receive the applications. When the registration drive is complete in accordance with all applicable deadlines, all completed and uncompleted forms must be returned to the respective county clerk. [Nevada Code 293.503](http://law.justia.com/codes/nevada/2009/title-24/chapter-293/registration-of-voters-registrars/293-503/) > [@](#): > > All books, documents and papers pertaining to registration are official records of the office of the county clerk. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/259 "2011-04-07T16:43:26Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > [ACORN Pleads Guilty to Voter Registration Fraud in Nevada](http://buzz.yahoo.com/article/1:99d1febfbc0f579a6c3bb3559bbe7ace:a264097d3ace95bdae568d1b42ab37fc/Democratic-ACORN-Pleads-Guilty-to-Voter-Registration-Fraud-in-Nevada) > > ACORN itself, the organization, was named as a criminal defendant. Not its officers or its board… the corporate entity itself was charged with criminal conduct and has pled guilty. > > " > > No one can say any longer that “ACORN did absolutely nothing wrong, and O’Keefe fabricated every single implication of it himself.” ACORN has admitted guilt. Technically speaking, no one can say, “ACORN Pleads Guilty to Voter Registration Fraud in Nevada” either because that still isn’t true. Sad that you linked to a Fox News site that says just that. “The defunct political advocacy group ACORN has pleaded guilty to one count of an election law violation in Las Vegas, Nevada.” Not voter fraud, not voter registration fraud, not child prostitution, and not conspiracy to commit mortgage fraud. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/260 "2011-04-07T16:44:14Z")
NM. Better done by **Dio** and **Cheesewhiz.** [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467.md?page=14)