# "ACORN did absolutely nothing wrong" no longer true **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 6, 2011, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467 "2011-04-06T23:23:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/261 "2011-04-07T16:45:02Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > ACORN was legally required to submit the registration forms they received. Of course, that’s true. It’s kinda annoying to be asked for a cite for something that everyone knows is true, isn’t it? > [@](#): > > The person that filled them out committed voter registration fraud, not ACORN. If ACORN had refused to submit them that would have been illegal (but not wrong). No, if ACORN creates a the siutuation in which their lax procedures encourage the person to submit fraudulent forms, then they have a responsibility when fraudulent forms are submitted. > [@](#): > > Also note, this isn’t even close to voter fraud, which would be if some how ACORN went as Tony Ramano and voted [D] 100 times. Yes. A point made about six hundred times already, but I suppose 601 won’t hurt. > [@](#): > > The crime ACORN admitted to was paying people improperly for voter registration. Note that it’s okay to pay people for voter registration, but not the way ACORN did it. Also note that it has nothing to do with fraudulent registration forms. If all the forms had been correct the act of paying per form was a violation of state law. Correct. > [@](#): > > Note also that several states allow paying per registration. That’s where the line gets blurry, it’s Nevada law that says you can’t pay people that way. > > Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t it pretty typical for a national company/organization to have a standard policy that they later find isn’t allowed in a particular jurisdiction. The result being that they plead guilty and pay the fine? It’s NOT standard for a national organization to have its state director also plead guilty to the same crime, actually. So… no. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/262 "2011-04-07T16:45:59Z")
Why do Americans need agencies like ACORN, anyway? On my tax returns every year is a checkbox consenting for Revenue Canada to share my name and address with Elections Canada. Sometime in the next few weeks, I expect to get a card telling me where and when to vote in the upcoming federal election. No fuss, no hassle… ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/263 "2011-04-07T16:46:52Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > [http://www.publicintegrity.org/blog/entry/885/](http://www.publicintegrity.org/blog/entry/885/) > > This is all I could find about a requirement to submit any and all registration forms. > > (emphasis mine) I didn’t intend for you to actually search. I thought my request for a cite was, in context, clearly an effort to highlight other absurd requests for cites. I agree that the law requires submission of all forms received. No actual cite is required. ---
**Author:** ![Jenaroph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Jenaroph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenaroph)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/264 "2011-04-07T16:50:58Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > ACORN was obligated by law to submit them. It did not have a legal option of culling them. If they had tried to remove the farudulent ones, they would have been violating the law and doing something “wrong.” > [@Bricker](#): > > Cite? > > And would it, in fact, have been wrong to just throw out a registration for, say, Mickey Mouse? Not legal or illegal, but in Dio-tongue, “wrong?” In this case, Diogenes is correct. [http://nvsos.gov/Modules/ShowDocument.aspx?documentid=1399](http://nvsos.gov/Modules/ShowDocument.aspx?documentid=1399) Page two - I’m not going to quote because it’s non-copy/pasteable and I’m not going to retype the whole thing, but it clearly states that all completed and uncompleted forms are the property of the SOS and respective clerks and must be returned. That appears to apply to forms filled out with fake names. Also, it states that voter registration is incomplete till the information on the forms is verified. That also appears to apply to forms filled out with fake names. It is the responsibility of the state, not the operators of the registration drives, to determine the validity of a voter registration form. ETA: And yes, it’s wrong, not just illegal. I went to high school with a guy named Ronald McDonald. It would have been wrong for a voter registration guy to decide “That can’t be a real form” and throw it out. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/265 "2011-04-07T16:51:21Z")
**Bricker** , do you continue to defend your statement that “ACORN pleads guilty to voter registration fraud in Nevada”? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/266 "2011-04-07T16:51:46Z")
Well then you know that ACORN had no choice about submitting the obviously bogus registrations, so what was your point in repeatedly stating that they submitted fraudulent forms, as if that made them guilty of something? Also, your assertion in your OP that ACORN had “pled guilty to voter registration fraud” was false. ACORN pled guilty to no such thing. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/267 "2011-04-07T16:52:22Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Why do Americans need agencies like ACORN, anyway? On my tax returns every year is a checkbox consenting for Revenue Canada to share my name and address with Elections Canada. Sometime in the next few weeks, I expect to get a card telling me where and when to vote in the upcoming federal election. No fuss, no hassle… Conservatives want to do everything possible to disenfranchise liberal voters. The poor tend to vote for liberal candidates. So, conservatives throw every possible roadblock they can manage to make it more difficult for the poor to register to vote. Something as simple and rational as your system is the last thing they want. As a result organizations exist to canvas poor neighborhoods and get people registered to vote. Conservatives absolutely hate this. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/268 "2011-04-07T16:58:10Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I agree. I said exactly that in response to **Gadarene**. > > I’m saying that “ACORN submitted fradulent voter registrations” is something that a reasonable debater ought to concede here, even though they didn’t plead guilty to doing it, because every grownup knows they did it. > > I’m saying that if you insist on a cite before conceding this point, that’s your privilege, but youy can’t argue that way and expect me to graciously concede “everybody knows” points on my side. They don’t concede it because it’s like mentioning the fact that my friend Steve regularly kills animals without saying that he’s a butcher. I don’t see anyone here unwilling to concede that ACORN submitted fraudulent registrations with the added fact that they did everything in their power to flag and prevent those registrations from going through. I notice that you still haven’t addressed the wrong=/=illegal point that I, and a couple other posters have made. Funny, usually that’s your favorite tack in these type of threads. I guess such things are only important when they support your argument. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/269 "2011-04-07T17:00:02Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Well then you know that ACORN had no choice about submitting the obviously bogus registrations, so what was your point in repeatedly stating that they submitted fraudulent forms, as if that made them guilty of something? > > Also, your assertion in your OP that ACORN had “pled guilty to voter registration fraud” was false. ACORN pled guilty to no such thing. Not strictly fair. **Bricker** merely cited a reference to that esteemed paragon of truth and candor, Fox News. _They_ said “voter registration fraud”, he merely reported that such a thing had been said, he did not specifically attach his name to such a charge, he merely let it stand without further explanation. Perhaps it would have been more honest and forthcoming to declare such a distinction, but the \*\*Ninja of Nitpick \*\*moves in the shadows. The penumbras, if you will. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/270 "2011-04-07T17:03:42Z")
The most I’m willing to conced is that if this one office in Nevada violated the law in how they paid canvassers, then that was _stupid_, and I don’t know why they’d do it, but it’s a long way away from showing that did did anything “wrong” in the sense of deliberately corrupt or malicious, and it it still stands that ACORN was never found to have been involved in any wrongdoing (legal or otherwise) with regard to the O’Keefe videos or with regard to the conspiracies alleged by the right wing media that ACORN was involved with any attempt to defraud the election. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/271 "2011-04-07T17:05:36Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Why do Americans need agencies like ACORN, anyway? On my tax returns every year is a checkbox consenting for Revenue Canada to share my name and address with Elections Canada. Sometime in the next few weeks, I expect to get a card telling me where and when to vote in the upcoming federal election. No fuss, no hassle… Voter registration is still a problem in Canada. My mother and her friends used to go out and canvas neighbourhoods to get people to register. They were {gasp} paid per registration by {gasp} the Government of Canada! She also used to bitch that the neighbourhoods she was going to was full of “transients” that hadn’t lived there 3 months and hadn’t planned to live there 3 more. So at the end of the day she’d have no registration forms and hence no money. Had she filled out a stack of forms THAT would have been voter registration fraud. She also would have been defrauding her employeer (in this case the Government of Canada). Did the Government of Canada commit voter registration fraud? What they did certainly violated election laws in Nevada. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/272 "2011-04-07T17:06:41Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > Did the Government of Canada commit voter registration fraud? What they did certainly violated election laws in Nevada. Get on it, Fox! Why hasn’t the American people heard about this atrocity of civil rights yet?! ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/273 "2011-04-07T17:10:12Z")
> [@Gadarene](#): > > **Bricker** , do you continue to defend your statement that “ACORN pleads guilty to voter registration fraud in Nevada”? No. In fact, those words were a link to the web story of the same name, not my independent composition. But to the extent I was defending it at all, I renounce it now. ACORN pled guilty to illegally compensating voter registration collectors, which is an election law violation. My OP was in error to suggest otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/274 "2011-04-07T17:10:21Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Conservatives want to do everything possible to disenfranchise liberal voters. The poor tend to vote for liberal candidates. So, conservatives throw every possible roadblock they can manage to make it more difficult for the poor to register to vote. You mean like passing laws against fraud? What an interesting way of thinking. And by “interesting”, I mean “stupid”. The only roadblock keeping poor people from registering in this case is the fact that ACORN is a bunch of crooks. If ACORN had managed to keep within the law, they could have gone on registering until the cows come home. But, they couldn’t. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/275 "2011-04-07T17:13:10Z")
> [@treis](#): > > They don’t concede it because it’s like mentioning the fact that my friend Steve regularly kills animals without saying that he’s a butcher. I don’t see anyone here unwilling to concede that ACORN submitted fraudulent registrations with the added fact that they did everything in their power to flag and prevent those registrations from going through. > > I notice that you still haven’t addressed the wrong=/=illegal point that I, and a couple other posters have made. Funny, usually that’s your favorite tack in these type of threads. I guess such things are only important when they support your argument. Then you haven’t [noticed thoroughly](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13660745&postcount=185). According to the **Whack-a-Mole** rule, you must have seen that post. I’ll leave it to him to berate you for your refusal to acknowledge it. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/276 "2011-04-07T17:16:16Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > The only roadblock keeping poor people from registering in this case is the fact that ACORN is a bunch of crooks. If ACORN had managed to keep within the law, they could have gone on registering until the cows come home. But, they couldn’t. **Shodan** , the anti- **Dio**. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/277 "2011-04-07T17:17:28Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > OK, you’re correct that there’s an imprecision between ‘wrong’ and ‘illegal’ that needs some airing out. I have some arguments that it’s wrong, if for no other reason than other voter registration efforts presumably must conform their conduct to the law, and when ACORN does it, it gives them a certain advantage. Also, the law exists to reduce the incentive to falsify registrations, and the submission of false registrations seems to me to be a self-evident wrong. > > But forget that. I’ll withdraw “wrong” if it’s causing confusion. So your OP is incorrect. Are you going to apologize to \*\*Dio \*\*now? And admit that ACORN has done absolutely nothing _wrong_? > [@Bricker](#): > > Which of these two positions is more unreasonable? Definitely **Dio** ’s, which still leaves your position as unreasonable. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/278 "2011-04-07T17:18:32Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No. In fact, those words were a link to the web story of the same name, not my independent composition. > > But to the extent I was defending it at all, I renounce it now. ACORN pled guilty to illegally compensating voter registration collectors, which is an election law violation. My OP was in error to suggest otherwise. And after only six pages! Splendid! ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/279 "2011-04-07T17:20:47Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > You mean like passing laws against fraud? What an interesting way of thinking. And by “interesting”, I mean “stupid”. > > The only roadblock keeping poor people from registering in this case is the fact that ACORN is a bunch of crooks. If ACORN had managed to keep within the law, they could have gone on registering until the cows come home. But, they couldn’t. > > Regards, > Shodan Shodam, I am loathe to criticize a friendly voice. But this is just as extreme as **Dio** ’s “they’re all angels” claim, and just as wrong. ACORN were not crooks. They may have had crooks in their employ, but as an organization, they were simply: (a) lax, and (b) do-gooders. Their motive was not to be crooked; it was to register low-income voters. They were earnest and zealous. In their zealousness, they cut corners. That was illegal and (I might argue elsewhere) wrong… but it doesn’t remotely rise to the level of “they’re all crooks.” So – and I say this as a guy in a swamped lifeboat in this thread – stop helping. I can hardly slam Dio for his absolute stands and let this comment go by. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/280 "2011-04-07T17:20:52Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > According to the **Whack-a-Mole** rule, you must have seen that post. I’ll leave it to him to berate you for your refusal to acknowledge it. Nice false equivalency. Keep trying though. You may get out of the hole you dug yourself someday. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467.md?page=15)