# "ACORN did absolutely nothing wrong" no longer true **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 6, 2011, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467 "2011-04-06T23:23:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/281 "2011-04-07T17:22:32Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > So your OP is incorrect. Are you going to apologize to \*\*Dio \*\*now? And admit that ACORN has done absolutely nothing _wrong_? No. As I said, I’ll withdraw an argument about “wrong,” but I won’t concede they did nothing wrong; I do think violating that set of laws is fairly described as wrong but recognize that reasonable people may disagree on the point. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/282 "2011-04-07T17:23:37Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Nice false equivalency. > > Keep trying though. You may get out of the hole you dug yourself someday. “False?” It’s exactly the same fucking situation, shithead. I made a post in the thread, he didn’t see it. How is that not exactly what you were talking about? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/283 "2011-04-07T17:28:30Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > The most I’m willing to conced is that if this one office in Nevada violated the law in how they paid canvassers, then that was _stupid_, and I don’t know why they’d do it, but it’s a long way away from showing that did did anything “wrong” in the sense of deliberately corrupt or malicious, and it it still stands that ACORN was never found to have been involved in any wrongdoing (legal or otherwise) with regard to the O’Keefe videos or with regard to the conspiracies alleged by the right wing media that ACORN was involved with any attempt to defraud the election. Will you concede that concede is spelled “concede”? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/284 "2011-04-07T17:31:26Z")
So, to sum up : ACORN pled guilty to improper compensation of registration workers. From this we \*\*cannot \*\*conclude that A.) ACORN did anything illegal, merely that they opted to pay the fine rather than fight the charge; B.) that ACORN did anything _wrong_, per se, even if they did actually commit the act in question. Thus, the assertion Bricker is trying to refute, that ACORN “did absolutely nothing wrong”, even if one unreasonably lifts it out of its context and construes it as referring to all of ACORN’s conduct in the history of time itself - remains unrefuted. So no matter how you look at it, the OP was pointless. Kudos! ---
**Author:** ![zamboniracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9a140/32.png) [@zamboniracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zamboniracer)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/285 "2011-04-07T17:33:18Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Why do Americans need agencies like ACORN, anyway? On my tax returns every year is a checkbox consenting for Revenue Canada to share my name and address with Elections Canada. Sometime in the next few weeks, I expect to get a card telling me where and when to vote in the upcoming federal election. No fuss, no hassle… Damn your Canadian fair voting practices! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/286 "2011-04-07T17:34:00Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > “False?” > > It’s exactly the same fucking situation, shithead. I made a post in the thread, he didn’t see it. How is that not exactly what you were talking about? You and I were in a direct back-and-forth discussion on a particular point. The posts were not even far apart in the thread. You linked to a post directed at one poster and then suggest a completely different poster, not engaged with you on the linked post at all, must have seen it. Not the same thing. Seriously man, you need to stop digging when you’re in a hole. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/287 "2011-04-07T17:35:08Z")
**CandidGamera:** I dunno, I’m perfectly comfortable concluding (for all intents and purposes) that ACORN’s guilty plea means that they did, in fact, compensate registration workers in a manner violative of Nevada law. While it’s true that ACORN may well have opted to pay the fine despite being innocent of the charge simply to avoid the cost of further litigation, I certainly don’t think that’s the most likely or plausible scenario here. Not that this is supportive whatsoever of any of **Bricker’s** larger points, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/288 "2011-04-07T17:39:39Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No, if ACORN creates a the siutuation in which their lax procedures encourage the person to submit fraudulent forms, then they have a responsibility when fraudulent forms are submitted. So is it your contention that these organizations must have such strict screening processes so as to ensure that 100% of all registrants fill out their forms completely accurately? Do you believe that any false data that gets through is either the responsibility of the entity signing up the voter or, at the very least, that entity is complicit in the signer’s actions? Finally, when you make the quoted statement, you’re talking from an ethical, not a legal, standpoint, correct? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/289 "2011-04-07T17:39:50Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > …they were simply: (a) lax, and (b) do-gooders. Their motive was not to be crooked; it was to register low-income voters. They were earnest and zealous. In their zealousness, they cut corners. That was illegal and (I would argue) wrong… but it doesn’t remotely rise to the level of “they’re all crooks.”… Oh, you have no idea. Said this before, but I worked for a foundation that gave them money, met a lot of them. So sincere, they made my teeth hurt. So earnest and do-goody, made me want to drink. But, truth be known, they embarrassed me. They were out there doing the hard work, the slogging, door to door misery of democracy. Smart ass elitist that I am, I sneered at their naiveté, thinking they were accomplishing something by nibbling at voter registration. Turns out, they were right, and I was full of beans. The very fact of their persecution by the Republicans proves they were right, proves they were effective, proves that the Forces of Darkness can be frightened by earnest and sincere people with Goodwill suits, ratty old cars, and a determined idealism. They weren’t showy, they weren’t flashy, they simply worked, worked hard, and worked every day to make a difference. Today, I light a stick of incense for the spirit of Saul Alinsky, and his insufferably sincere children. If evil men hate and fear you, you must have something going on. May the Goddess hold you close to Her bountiful bosom, now and forever, amen. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/290 "2011-04-07T17:40:44Z")
Grats, **Bricker**. I’ll acknowledge that ACORN broke a single law, one time. Are you happy now? ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/291 "2011-04-07T17:44:26Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No, if ACORN creates a the siutuation in which their lax procedures encourage the person to submit fraudulent forms, then they have a responsibility when fraudulent forms are submitted. I’m not even sure if “lax” is appropriate here. Their procedures caught and flagged fraudulent registration forms. [That they were then required to submit 602.] Had they followed Nevada law and paid people hourly they might still have had people filling out fraudulent forms [that they would have still been required to submit 603]. Their “procedure” was to pay people to go out and register voters, then flag the fraudulent forms. I’m not sure how much more could be done. Is this really the only time a fraudulent form has ever been submitted? ETA I appear to be late again, feel free to ignore this post. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/292 "2011-04-07T17:45:45Z")
**Bricker** , in light of all that has been presented to you today, if you were given a chance to rewrite your title and original post, what would they say? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/293 "2011-04-07T17:45:55Z")
You’re not keeping up, Friend **Bricker** has abandoned all those false positions, and rests simply upon his central point, that **Dio** is a poopy-pants. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/294 "2011-04-07T17:47:32Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Oh, you have no idea. Said this before, but I worked for a foundation that gave them money, met a lot of them. So sincere, they made my teeth hurt. So earnest and do-goody, made me want to drink. > > But, truth be known, they embarrassed me. They were out there doing the hard work, the slogging, door to door misery of democracy. Smart ass elitist that I am, I sneered at their naiveté, thinking they were accomplishing something by nibbling at voter registration. > > Turns out, they were right, and I was full of beans. The very fact of their persecution by the Republicans proves they were right, proves they were effective, proves that the Forces of Darkness can be frightened by earnest and sincere people with Goodwill suits, ratty old cars, and a determined idealism. They weren’t showy, they weren’t flashy, they simply worked, worked hard, and worked every day to make a difference. > > Today, I light a stick of incense for the spirit of Saul Aliens, and his insufferably sincere children. If evil men hate and fear you, you must have something going on. May the Goddess hold you close to Her bountiful bosom, now and forever, amen. I rubbed elbows with them too, in a past life as a community organizer. I thought they were naive too. They’re the type that are always looking on the bright side, always assume that other people are good, and have cliched, inspirational quotes on their desks. I asked a guy once if he ever felt like he was wasting his time, if it was all futile and hopelessly optimistic. He pointed to a quote on his wall by Michael Jordan - “I can accept failure. I can’t accept not trying.” That’s the kind of attitude that makes a cynic feel ashamed. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/295 "2011-04-07T17:51:38Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No. In fact, those words were a link to the web story of the same name, not my independent composition. > > But to the extent I was defending it at all, I renounce it now. ACORN pled guilty to illegally compensating voter registration collectors, which is an election law violation. My OP was in error to suggest otherwise. Your OP didn’t “suggest” anything, it blatantly stated it. You either didn’t know what was going on, or you deliberately misled people (which is what most people would call “lying”, by the way). Good on you for admitting you lied, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/296 "2011-04-07T17:52:45Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > So, to sum up : > > ACORN pled guilty to improper compensation of registration workers. From this we \*\*cannot \*\*conclude that A.) ACORN did anything illegal, merely that they opted to pay the fine rather than fight the charge; B.) that ACORN did anything _wrong_, per se, even if they did actually commit the act in question. A question I have asked several times in this thread: What evidence would be necessary to convince you that they did violate the law? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/297 "2011-04-07T17:53:14Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Shodam, I am loathe to criticize a friendly voice. > > But this is just as extreme as **Dio** ’s “they’re all angels” claim, and just as wrong. > > ACORN were not crooks. They may have had crooks in their employ, but as an organization, they were simply: (a) lax, and (b) do-gooders. Their motive was not to be crooked; it was to register low-income voters. They were earnest and zealous. In their zealousness, they cut corners. That was illegal and (I might argue elsewhere) wrong… but it doesn’t remotely rise to the level of “they’re all crooks.” > > So – and I say this as a guy in a swamped lifeboat in this thread – stop helping. I can hardly slam Dio for his absolute stands and let this comment go by. DAMMIT stop being reasonable! It’s a lot easier to dis you when you’re just being a rabid partisan jerk. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/298 "2011-04-07T17:53:56Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Your OP didn’t “suggest” anything, it blatantly stated it. You either didn’t know what was going on, or you deliberately misled people (which is what most people would call “lying”, by the way). > > Good on you for admitting you lied, I guess. No. I linked the a news article with that exact title. The article’s title was my hyperlink. How is that me blatantly stating it, when it’s clearly a link to an article with that exact name? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/299 "2011-04-07T17:56:28Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > DAMMIT stop being reasonable! It’s a lot easier to dis you when you’re just being a rabid partisan jerk. 🙂 See, in all seriousness, though… I don’t think I’m doing anything different. Someone whose post I haven’t gotten to said something about “my larger points.” The fact that ACORN did something illegal (and arguably wrong) _is_ my larger point. I wasn’t trying to say that O’keefe was right, that they supported prostitution, or any of that crap. But I think when people see what looks like an attack on ACORN, they read all that into it. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/300 "2011-04-07T17:58:39Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No. I linked the a news article with that exact title. The article’s title was my hyperlink. How is that me blatantly stating it, when it’s clearly a link to an article with that exact name? Because you could have written something else to be the link. You chose not to, prolly because you were so damned gleeful at ACORN pleading guilty to _anything_. You did what you could, at the onset, to further the lie. In fact, you did what you could to further that lie until 6 pages of discussion had gone forth and multiple people had pointed out that the headline you consciously chose to copy and paste was, in fact, not true. Either you read the article and knew it wasn’t true, or you didn’t read the article, and so you didn’t really know what you were so damned gleeful about, except that ACORN was guilty of _something_. Given your history and intelligence, I’m going with “lied” rather than “was ignorant”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467.md?page=16)