# "ACORN did absolutely nothing wrong" no longer true **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 6, 2011, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467 "2011-04-06T23:23:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/301 "2011-04-07T18:01:20Z")
> [@Enderw24](#): > > So is it your contention that these organizations must have such strict screening processes so as to ensure that 100% of all registrants fill out their forms completely accurately? Do you believe that any false data that gets through is either the responsibility of the entity signing up the voter or, at the very least, that entity is complicit in the signer’s actions? No. They need to take reasonable steps to ensure the accuracy of their efforts. I don’t hold them to any particular percentage – certainly not 100%. When they create a compensation that actually invites fraud, incentivizes fraud, that’s when I feel they can be considered responsible. > [@](#): > > Finally, when you make the quoted statement, you’re talking from an ethical, not a legal, standpoint, correct? Yes, although a finder of fact could conclude that their conduct legally met the standard for conspiracy. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/302 "2011-04-07T18:02:09Z")
ACORN set up a system that rated performance on reaching a goal of 20 registration forms per shift. That is not a prescription for the workers to cheat. It is one that encourages them to work harder and achieve goals. Are you suggesting we should get rid of setting goals because it encourages people to cheat? Are you also suggesting if a couple people cheat to get those goals the organization is guilty of fraud? Your premise is wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/303 "2011-04-07T18:03:02Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Because you could have written something else to be the link. I cut and pasted the title of the article from the article. I didn’t write anything. I linked to the story, using its title as the link. That’s completely standard practice. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/304 "2011-04-07T18:03:16Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No. As I said, I’ll withdraw an argument about “wrong,” but I won’t concede they did nothing wrong; I do think violating that set of laws is fairly described as wrong but recognize that reasonable people may disagree on the point. I don’t think that anyone would agree that violating a law is automatically wrong. I think there are some that would argue that **knowingly** violating a law is wrong. Which I don’t think you have even attempted to prove that is what ACORN did. From what I gather, Nevada’s laws on this matter are a bit out of the mainstream, and I’ve seen no reason to believe that this wasn’t simply a mistake by Acorn. I don’t think anyone would argue that mistakenly violating a minor law is wrong. I apologize for missing your previous post. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/305 "2011-04-07T18:05:33Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > ACORN set up a system that rated performance on reaching a goal of 20 registration forms per shift. That is not a prescription for the workers to cheat. It is one that encourages them to work harder and achieve goals. > Are you suggesting we should get rid of setting goals because it encourages people to cheat? Are you also suggesting if a couple people cheat to get those goals the organization is guilty of fraud? > Your premise is wrong. No, **gonzomax** , deciding that all goal-setting is bad because this method of goal-setting is bad would be “throwing out the baby with the bathwater.” This method of setting goals was bad. So bad, it was aginst the law. That doesn’t mean that other goal setting methods are also bad. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/306 "2011-04-07T18:10:27Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No. They need to take reasonable steps to ensure the accuracy of their efforts. I don’t hold them to any particular percentage – certainly not 100%. When they create a compensation that actually invites fraud, incentivizes fraud, that’s when I feel they can be considered responsible… “They”? You have proof, then, that this was a matter of policy and not simply an action by one person? The problem with arguing with you is that you often try to get more mileage out of insinuation that from fact. One is forced to counter nitpickery with nitpickery. Which is tiresome. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/307 "2011-04-07T18:12:18Z")
Obviously ACORN, or at least it’s Nevada Branch, did break the law, but it’s clearly a very minor infraction and was committed more out of stupidity than malice. I’m not sure how this form of fraud would have benefitted the Democrats. Some ACORN workers turned in phony voter registration forms in order to get bonuses. However, unless someone voted in those people’s names, no candidate is given an advantage. What I think was far more serious, and what led to ACORN’s downfall was when the founder’s brother embezzled a bunch of money and then top officials there tried to cover it up. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/308 "2011-04-07T18:12:32Z")
> [@treis](#): > > I apologize for missing your previous post. No worries. It’s the kind of thing that can happen to anyone, in a thread. I just don’t envy you the dressing-down that’s coming from **Whack-a-Mole**. > [@treis](#): > > I don’t think that anyone would agree that violating a law is automatically wrong. I think there are some that would argue that **knowingly** violating a law is wrong. Which I don’t think you have even attempted to prove that is what ACORN did. From what I gather, Nevada’s laws on this matter are a bit out of the mainstream, and I’ve seen no reason to believe that this wasn’t simply a mistake by Acorn. I don’t think anyone would argue that mistakenly violating a minor law is wrong. Well, as I understand it, the submitting official has to sign, when he accepts the blank forms from the clerk, that he understands the rules associated with collecting registrations. So it’s not just a matter of failing to look up the law; the law is staring you in the face when you accept the blank forms. Could it still be a mistake? Anything is possible, but a guilty plea admits that it wasn’t a mistake. So bascially we have only speculation that they made a mistake, against the signed notification and the guilty plea (and the general admonition that when you’re the executive director of ACORN Nevada you have some kind of duty to understand the laws governing your conduct in Nevada.) ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/309 "2011-04-07T18:12:53Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Shodam, I am loathe to criticize a friendly voice. > > But this is just as extreme as **Dio** ’s “they’re all angels” claim, and just as wrong. > > ACORN were not crooks. They may have had crooks in their employ, but as an organization, they were simply: (a) lax, and (b) do-gooders. Their motive was not to be crooked; it was to register low-income voters. They were earnest and zealous. In their zealousness, they cut corners. That was illegal and (I might argue elsewhere) wrong… but it doesn’t remotely rise to the level of “they’re all crooks.” > > So – and I say this as a guy in a swamped lifeboat in this thread – stop helping. I can hardly slam Dio for his absolute stands and let this comment go by. I’m not so much helping you as making fun of **Whack-a-Mole** ’s notion that the laws against fraud are an onerous burden that evil conservatives use to keep people from voting. If you want to pretend that people in this thread are debating in good faith, and have any right to expect the same back - in the Pit - go ahead. I feel no such obligation. Like I said, earlier, if this were a Republican organization, all the Usual Suspects would instantly flip-flop. This would be a huge deal, it would be put forward as absolute proof that Republicans are evil, and anyone who said they didn’t do anything wrong would be attacked continuously in every forum. Stonewall, deny, dismiss, change the subject, attack the messenger. SOP. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/310 "2011-04-07T18:14:40Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > “They”? You have proof, then, that this was a matter of policy and not simply an action by one person? Yes. Christopher Edwards’ statements implicating Amy Busefink and describing their policy. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/311 "2011-04-07T18:15:49Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I cut and pasted the title of the article from the article. > > I didn’t write anything. I linked to the story, using its title as the link. That’s completely standard practice. So you knew it was false and you cut and pasted it anyway? Is that your excuse? Or are you saying that you are incapable of, or don’t know how to, write some text and then make that text be a link? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/312 "2011-04-07T18:16:27Z")
ACORN was not a Democratic organization. It was non-partisan. If it was a partisan organization, it couldn’t have been funded. Any perceived “liberal” agenda on the aprt of ACORN is sheer, retard right wing fantasy. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/313 "2011-04-07T18:16:37Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I cut and pasted the title of the article from the article. > > I didn’t write anything. I linked to the story, using its title as the link. That’s completely standard practice. You linked to an organization whose standard practice is to subvert the truth. Technically speaking, you were required to post the title of their article, regardless of whether it was true or not. By your own definitions in this thread that makes you responsible for their actions, due to your lax procedures. The least you could have done was to flag the title as being misleading. They lied, so you lied. Even worse, they get paid per click, an incentive that encourages outlandish titles that prompt people to see that ACORN was guilty of voter registration fraud, only to find out they weren’t. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/314 "2011-04-07T18:19:16Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes. Christopher Edwards’ statements implicating Amy Busefink and describing their policy. And she is the maximum leader of ACORN? Her actions then, may be taken as policy? ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/315 "2011-04-07T18:21:24Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I’m not so much helping you as making fun of **Whack-a-Mole** ’s notion that the laws against fraud are an onerous burden that evil conservatives use to keep people from voting. The law broken in this instance has nothing to do with fraud. ACORN plead guilty to violating Nevada election laws, not to fraud. The act of paying per registration is illegal in Nevada regardless of the validity of the form submitted. Note that it’s perfectly legal in other states and in other countries. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/316 "2011-04-07T18:22:35Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I’m not so much helping you as making fun of **Whack-a-Mole** ’s notion that the laws against fraud are an onerous burden that evil conservatives use to keep people from voting. > > If you want to pretend that people in this thread are debating in good faith, and have any right to expect the same back - in the Pit - go ahead. I feel no such obligation. > > Like I said, earlier, if this were a Republican organization, all the Usual Suspects would instantly flip-flop. This would be a huge deal, it would be put forward as absolute proof that Republicans are evil, and anyone who said they didn’t do anything wrong would be attacked continuously in every forum. > > Stonewall, deny, dismiss, change the subject, attack the messenger. SOP. > > Regards, > Shodan Some are. Some are debating on good faith, and frankly it’s those guys that make it impossible for me to sustain my rage against the assholes that are not. How can I treat, say, **Bosstone** with the contempt that is necessary to sustain a chicken-shit, bad faith debate? How can I subject **Brian Ekers** to phony demands for cites just because others are doing it? I’ve tried, and I can’t. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/317 "2011-04-07T18:23:37Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > And she is the maximum leader of ACORN? Her actions then, may be taken as policy? No, Christopher was the maximum leader of ACORN Nevada. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/318 "2011-04-07T18:24:49Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Like I said, earlier, if this were a Republican organization, all the Usual Suspects would instantly flip-flop. This would be a huge deal, it would be put forward as absolute proof that Republicans are evil, and anyone who said they didn’t do anything wrong would be attacked continuously in every forum. Is it your contention that this action shouldn’t occur? Or that because it does occur the other side should do it? It seems clear to me that you recognize it’s wrong to be a partisan hack. Which to me suggest that you yourself should make every attempt to AVOID being a partisan hack. In reality, all you’ve done is prove that [conservatives] are partisan hacks since we don’t have a mirror situation yet of a [liberal] rubbing someone’s nose in a steaming pile of partisan shit. High road, try it. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/319 "2011-04-07T18:25:30Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > You linked to an organization whose standard practice is to subvert the truth. > > Technically speaking, you were required to post the title of their article, regardless of whether it was true or not. > > By your own definitions in this thread that makes you responsible for their actions, due to your lax procedures. The least you could have done was to flag the title as being misleading. > > They lied, so you lied. > > Even worse, they get paid per click, an incentive that encourages outlandish titles that prompt people to see that ACORN was guilty of voter registration fraud, only to find out they weren’t. [buzz.yahoo.com](http://buzz.yahoo.com) is an organization whose standard practice is to subvert the truth? Did I miss a memo? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/320 "2011-04-07T18:25:30Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > ACORN was not a Democratic organization. It was non-partisan. If it was a partisan organization, it couldn’t have been funded. Any perceived “liberal” agenda on the aprt of ACORN is sheer, retard right wing fantasy. You do know an organization can be officially nonpartisan while still having a liberal (or conservative, or socialist, or whatever) political orientation, right? Right? Or are you in denial about this as well? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467.md?page=17)