# "ACORN did absolutely nothing wrong" no longer true **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 6, 2011, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467 "2011-04-06T23:23:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/21 "2011-04-07T00:29:20Z")
The way they paid those laborers incentivized the fraud, and it is illegal under Nevada law for that reason. I think that law is somewhat idiosyncratic, though, so the higher-ups in other states may not have been aware of it. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/22 "2011-04-07T00:30:51Z")
I’m not sure this is where **Bricker** wanted this discussion to go - although it’s a response to comments made in the Pit - but given the tenor of the thread so far and post #13 in particular, I’m going to move this to the Pit from GD. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/23 "2011-04-07T00:32:46Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > The way they paid those laborers incentivized the fraud, and it is illegal under Nevada law for that reason. > > I think that law is somewhat idiosyncratic, though, so the higher-ups in other states may not have been aware of it. That’s pretty weak beer. There was no intent to incite fraud, nor did ACORN have anything to gain by it. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/24 "2011-04-07T00:33:51Z")
By the way, how does any of this absolve that little skeevball, O’Keefe? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/25 "2011-04-07T00:35:26Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > That’s pretty weak beer. There was no intend to incite fraud, nor did ACORN have anything to gain by it. It doesn’t prove intent to commit fraud, that’s true. Indeed, I believe it was ACORN that turned over the suspect registrations that started the Nevada investigation. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/26 "2011-04-07T00:36:26Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > I think it’s fair to interpret those who were saying “ACORN did nothing wrong,” as saying that ACORN never encouraged voter fraud. So this case does disprove that proposition, insofar as this Nevada field organizer paid his canvassers in such a way as to incentivize fraud, with the knowledge of the higher-ups, according to the criminal complaint. _sigh_ “The violation was for unlawfully providing compensation for registering voters based on the total number of people registered.” It was not for voter registration fraud, nor for voter fraud but was for unlawfully providing compensation for registering voters based on the total number of people registered. Now remind me why ACORN has had problems for years on the voter registration side, yet was never defunded until O’Keefe’s lies? “incentivize”? I’ve got to say, that’s even worse than “rememberance”. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/27 "2011-04-07T00:38:22Z")
IANAL but my understanding is a plea agreement includes, indeed demands, an admission of guilt in court. Now, it may be you are guilty as hell. But I think it is also well understood that people opt for plea bargains because they do not want to roll the dice. Maybe you didn’t do what you are being accused of but if your choice is 10 years in prison if you lose or a year of probation on a plea a lot of people will opt for the plea even if they are innocent. Innocent or not though you will stand before The Man and admit your guilt. I am making no comment whether ACORN really was guilty here (I am totally unfamiliar with the case and evidence) but seems to me resting your case that they are GUILTY!!!11!1!!! is reaching to say the least. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/28 "2011-04-07T00:41:11Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > _sigh_ > > “The violation was for unlawfully providing compensation for registering voters based on the total number of people registered.” > > It was not for voter registration fraud, nor for voter fraud but was for unlawfully providing compensation for registering voters based on the total number of people registered. Now remind me why ACORN has had problems for years on the voter registration side, yet was never defunded until O’Keefe’s lies? > > “incentivize”? I’ve got to say, that’s even worse than “rememberance”. 🙂 Other than your criticism of the perfectly cromulent word incentivize, I don’t think we disagree. This plea does nothing to absolve the witch hunters who went after ACORN based on O’Keefe’s lies. What it does do is refute the proposition that ACORN never encouraged voter registration fraud. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/29 "2011-04-07T00:41:55Z")
I don’t see where ACORN had a legal choice about paying. By law, they were not allowed to decide whether individual registration forms were fraudulent or not, no matter how suspect they looked. All they could do was flag them and send them up the line, which they did. It looks like the DA is saying that paying by the form was, in itself, represented some kind of incentive to fraud. Pretty lame, but it’s a teabagger state with a heavily partisan political system. If this is the absolutely best they could do to try to stain ACORN, that speaks pretty damn well of ACORN. ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/30 "2011-04-07T00:45:38Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > I think it’s fair to interpret those who were saying “ACORN did nothing wrong,” as saying that ACORN never encouraged voter fraud. So this case does disprove that proposition, insofar as this Nevada field organizer paid his canvassers in such a way as to incentivize fraud, with the knowledge of the higher-ups, according to the criminal complaint. OK - so this entire discussion is about one single occurance and has nothing to do with other issues such as the O’Keefe incident? Is that correct? If so we can remove from discussion anyone making the statement that “ACORN did nothing wrong,” in reference to that incident or any other incident outside of The Las Vegas issue in the OP. So restricting this discussion to issues of voter fraud in Las Vegas, quotes saying “ACORN did nothing wrong,” appear to be incorrect as pointed out in the OP. > [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > I think it’s fair to interpret those who were saying “ACORN did nothing wrong,” as saying that ACORN never encouraged voter fraud. I’m not so sure it’s fair to assume someone claiming ACORN was not guilty of voter fraud in a particular case actually meant to say it has never happened anywhere by anyone associated with ACORN. I could be wrong but I think the egis is the person making that claim and it requires a little more than “I think it’s fair to interpret” ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/31 "2011-04-07T00:47:41Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I fail to see the wrongdoing. Some day laborors tried to cheat ACORN. ACORN was the victim. ACORN still did absolutely nothing wrong. Sorry, but that remains a fact. Sorry, but you’re wrong as a matter of fact and law. ACORN, the organization itself, entered a plea of guilty to a criminal charge. They admitted guilt. They are guilty. Period. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/32 "2011-04-07T00:48:38Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I don’t see where ACORN had a legal choice about paying. By law, they were not allowed to decide whether individual registration forms were fraudulent or not, no matter how suspect they looked. All they could do was flag them and send them up the line, which they did. > > It looks like the DA is saying that paying by the form was, in itself, represented some kind of incentive to fraud. Pretty lame, but it’s a teabagger state with a heavily partisan political system. If this is the absolutely best they could do to try to stain ACORN, that speaks pretty damn well of ACORN. I think you misunderstand. It is specifically illegal under Nevada law to pay by the registration. That is true of a handful of other states too. California is trying to pass such a law in that state, I believe. The law: > [@](#): > > ``` > NRS 293.805 Compensation for registration of voters based upon number of voters or voters of a particular party registered. > 1. It is unlawful for a person to provide compensation for registering voters that is based upon: > (a) The total number of voters a person registers; or > (b) The total number of voters a person registers in a particular political party. > 2. A person who violates any provision of this section is guilty of a category E felony and shall be punished as provided in NRS 193.130. > (Added to NRS by 1993, 2167; A 1995, 1270; 1997, 235) > > ``` ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/33 "2011-04-07T00:49:18Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I am making no comment whether ACORN really was guilty here (I am totally unfamiliar with the case and evidence) but seems to me resting your case that they are GUILTY!!!11!1!!! is reaching to say the least. No. No, no, no. Now, not even a guilty plea means they’re guilty, huh? Wow. It’s difficult to imagine what could be adduced as proof of guilt when even a guilty plea won’t suffice. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/34 "2011-04-07T00:50:16Z")
If you want to be pedantic “ACORN did absolutely nothing wrong” implies the organization as a whole. In any organization there will be bad apples. Just because one guy at Walmart rips off a delivery truck does not make Walmart guilty of supporting robbing of delivery trucks. Hardly a shocker to learn that someone in a large organization did something wrong. The officers and board were not charged with wrong doing because they, as the heads of the organization, did not promote this illegal activity. So someone somewhere down the line fucked up (and not even egregiously but more a mistake). Stop the presses! :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/35 "2011-04-07T00:50:32Z")
> [@zoid](#): > > I could be wrong but I think the egis is the person making that claim and it requires a little more than “I think it’s fair to interpret” Yeah, ok by me. I don’t know about the provenance of that particular quote. But I share **Bricker’s** memory that it was widely argued that ACORN had played no role in encouraging voter registration fraud. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/36 "2011-04-07T00:50:33Z")
> [@zoid](#): > > OK - so this entire discussion is about one single occurance and has nothing to do with other issues such as the O’Keefe incident? > Is that correct? This has to do with statements like these: > [@](#): > > ACORN was the victim. ACORN still did absolutely nothing wrong. Sorry, but that remains a fact. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/37 "2011-04-07T00:50:37Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I don’t see where ACORN had a legal choice about paying. But, under Nevada law, they needed to pay them by the hour, or the day, or something other than by the registration. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/38 "2011-04-07T00:52:45Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Sorry, but you’re wrong as a matter of fact and law. ACORN, the organization itself, entered a plea of guilty to a criminal charge. They admitted guilt. They are guilty. Period. And you are a fucking pathetic partisan moron. Period. As far as I can tell, ACORN never denied paying people for registrations. They also were bound by law to not throw away questionable stuff. So if it ends up they were doing something against the law, I suppose it is a good thing it got taken care of. You’re still a fucking pathetic partisan moron though. I’m glad we finally have broad agreement on that. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/39 "2011-04-07T00:52:53Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Sorry, but you’re wrong as a matter of fact and law. ACORN, the organization itself, entered a plea of guilty to a criminal charge. They admitted guilt. They are guilty. Period. They are guilty of what? You know this is pathetic. ACORN did nothing wrong. I will still say that straight out and still be right. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/40 "2011-04-07T00:54:11Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > If you want to be pedantic “ACORN did absolutely nothing wrong” implies the organization as a whole. > > In any organization there will be bad apples. Just because one guy at Walmart rips off a delivery truck does not make Walmart guilty of supporting robbing of delivery trucks. > > Hardly a shocker to learn that someone in a large organization did something wrong. > > The officers and board were not charged with wrong doing because they, as the heads of the organization, did not promote this illegal activity. > > So someone somewhere down the line fucked up (and not even egregiously but more a mistake). > > Stop the presses! :rolleyes: Yes, that was the argument before. But this criminal charge was against the organization, not an individual. The ACORN entity itself was a criminal defendant, and now it (ACORN, itself) has pled guilty. So you cannot claim (though you wiggle and dance mightily in an attempt) that ACORN did nothing wrong. ACORN admitted it did wrong. That’s what a guilty plea is. Now, this proves nothing about O’Keefe or teenage prostitutes, nor do I claim it does. It doesn’t prove ACORN was treated fairly; I agree they weren’t. See? I don’t hold to ridiculous dogmatic lines. But it DOES prove that ACORN, the entity itself, pled guilty, and thus as a matter of law IS guilty. And there are people here who refuse to concede that fact. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467.md?page=3)