# "ACORN did absolutely nothing wrong" no longer true **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 6, 2011, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467 "2011-04-06T23:23:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/61 "2011-04-07T01:08:59Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > In other words, fucking nothing. A Class-E felony, in fact. You sound just like the people defending DeLay after his conviction. “It’s fucking nothing.” ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/62 "2011-04-07T01:10:15Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > I did - however I did not believe that you were sincere in the slightest. I’ve said it many times before. I don’t think ACORN was treated fairly at all. But that unfairness does not, in turn, make **Diogenes** right when he makes these outrageous claims – does it? Why can’t he – or you – simply say, “Yes, ACORN violated the law here. But that doesn’t excuse the shabby treatment and the rush to judgement they got, does it?” And I’d reply, “No, of course not. I agree completely.” Because I do. I’m not the one asserting an absurd, extreme position here – am I? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/63 "2011-04-07T01:12:05Z")
I hear that someone who worked for ACORN was encouraging his workers to jaywalk to save time while canvassing. The higher up leaders of ACORN **knew** he was doing this and did **NOTHING**! This shows they are a CRIMINAL ORGANIZATION! ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/64 "2011-04-07T01:12:17Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Guilty, guilty, guilty. But did they do anything _wrong_? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/65 "2011-04-07T01:13:09Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Imagine ACORN committed a felony with a mandatory jail sentence. > > How would you throw ACORN in jail? > > Try it this way: > > If the guy in Nevada told his signature collection guys they’d get paid for every person they shot who would you expect to be standing in front of a court and pleading guilty? > > ACORN? Is there a jail anywhere that can hold this ACORN entity? > > That is laughable. It’s the law. A corporate entity guilty of a criminal act is typically punished with a fine. Why is that laughable? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/66 "2011-04-07T01:14:14Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > A Class-E felony, in fact. Wow! That’s serious! > [@](#): > > (e) A category E felony is a felony for which a court shall sentence a convicted person to imprisonment in the state prison for a minimum term of not less than 1 year and a maximum term of not more than 4 years. Except as otherwise provided in paragraph (b) of subsection 1 of NRS 176A.100, upon sentencing a person who is found guilty of a category E felony, the court shall suspend the execution of the sentence and grant probation to the person upon such conditions as the court deems appropriate. Such conditions of probation may include, but are not limited to, requiring the person to serve a term of confinement of not more than 1 year in the county jail. In addition to any other penalty, the court may impose a fine of not more than $5,000, unless a greater penalty is authorized or required by statute. > > SOURCE: [http://www.avvo.com/legal-answers/what-are-the-penalties-for-a-class-e-felony-in-nev-87821.html](http://www.avvo.com/legal-answers/what-are-the-penalties-for-a-class-e-felony-in-nev-87821.html) How long will ACORN spend in jail? Do you think ACORN can swing conjugal visits? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/67 "2011-04-07T01:15:38Z")
So let’s be clear, **Whack-a-Mole** , your position is that we should never hold corporations responsible for their crimes by making them pay fines? Or are you under the misimpression that the existence of corporate liability somehow trades off with individual liability? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/68 "2011-04-07T01:15:39Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Because I do. I’m not the one asserting an absurd, extreme position here – am I? You are the one stirring shit though. And I still don’t believe that you did not do a happy dance when ACORN folded. I have it on video. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/69 "2011-04-07T01:16:18Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > [Bingo!](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THLabh7WMXw) > > Diogenes, please review this link. I think it will really help clear up your confusion. I don’t have the ability to view videos on my computer. You’ll have to give me the bullet points. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/70 "2011-04-07T01:16:31Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Wow! That’s serious! > > How long will ACORN spend in jail? Do you think ACORN can swing conjugal visits? Are you serious? Have you never heard of corporate criminal liability before? To paraphrase the GEICO commercial, have you been living under a rock? Jesus! [Corporate liability - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_liability) Do a bit of basic research. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/71 "2011-04-07T01:16:32Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It’s the law. > > A corporate entity guilty of a criminal act is typically punished with a fine. > > Why is that laughable? We have a guy who worked for ACORN and committed a felony. In this case paying people for every signature they collected. If that same guy had instead told his people they’d be paid for everyone they killed that’d be a felony too. In the second case I am pretty sure no one would say “ACORN is guilty!” Nor would ACORN be entering plea bargains. We’d rightfully say that guy committed a felony and punish him accordingly. Why is this different? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/72 "2011-04-07T01:18:30Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I don’t have the ability to view videos on my computer. You’ll have to give me the bullet points. Of course. In the video, the singer keeps putting things in her bowl, but they always get eaten. It illustrates the concept of “zero” in a very entertaining and easy to follow way. I might have some DVDs I could send you; my son has outgrown all his toddler and preschool DVDs now and I can see you really need the help. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/73 "2011-04-07T01:20:13Z")
Says the one trying to neener neener over a trivial plea deal extracted by a partisan DA. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/74 "2011-04-07T01:21:12Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > We have a guy who worked for ACORN and committed a felony. In this case paying people for every signature they collected. > > If that same guy had instead told his people they’d be paid for everyone they killed that’d be a felony too. > > In the second case I am pretty sure no one would say “ACORN is guilty!” Nor would ACORN be entering plea bargains. > > We’d rightfully say that guy committed a felony and punish him accordingly. > > Why is this different? I could explain it to you, but in my experience you’re not really interested in learning these kinds of concepts, unless you sense they will help your position; if they won’t, your invincible ignorance shield usually stays at full power. Read the Wikipedia article. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/75 "2011-04-07T01:26:22Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Are you serious? Have you never heard of corporate criminal liability before? To paraphrase the GEICO commercial, have you been living under a rock? > > Jesus! [Corporate liability - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_liability) > > Do a bit of basic research. :rolleyes: Huh…well, that page suggests there is a lot of uncertainty about how to apply this. Under the criminal laws section I am not sure exactly what to apply in the US but I bet ACORN could make a defense for itself. However, since the law stipulates a fine of no more than $5,000 why would they bother? Far cheaper to just pay the $5,000 and be done with it than hire attorneys which would cost far, far more to litigate the case. So yeah, I am back to my bit about it being a plea and a plea is bullshit to determine actual guilt (yes I know legally they are “guilty”). ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/76 "2011-04-07T01:26:53Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Says the one trying to neener neener over a trivial plea deal extracted by a partisan DA. A plea deal resulting in a guilty verdict. Offered up by ACORN. Making ACORN guilty. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/77 "2011-04-07T01:27:32Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I could explain it to you, but in my experience you’re not really interested in learning these kinds of concepts, unless you sense they will help your position; if they won’t, your invincible ignorance shield usually stays at full power. Pot meet kettle. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/78 "2011-04-07T01:27:47Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > How long will ACORN spend in jail? Do you think ACORN can swing conjugal visits? The company I work for gets fined from time to time. The CEO is not liable for that, nor is some manager, nor is some worker, regardless of which one of them created the situation that led to the fine. The corporation is liable. This is not something that **Bricker** is attempting to draw full-grown from the brow of Zeus; it’s been around awhile. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/79 "2011-04-07T01:29:10Z")
I’m horrified that people were paid to get others to register as voters. The implications are … something. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467/80 "2011-04-07T01:29:25Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Huh…well, that page suggests there is a lot of uncertainty about how to apply this. > > Under the criminal laws section I am not sure exactly what to apply in the US but I bet ACORN could make a defense for itself. > > However, since the law stipulates a fine of no more than $5,000 why would they bother? > > Far cheaper to just pay the $5,000 and be done with it than hire attorneys which would cost far, far more to litigate the case. > > So yeah, I am back to my bit about it being a plea and a plea is bullshit to determine actual guilt (yes I know legally they are “guilty”). Actually, you have, as usual, no idea what you’re talking about, but that doesn’t slow you down in the slightest, does it? They were originally charged with multiple felonies. The plea deal has collateral consequences; they cannot now claim they didn’t commit the acts in any subsequent civil proceeding. It’s highly doubtful they would choose to plead guilty if they had a viable defense. You seriously believe that they DID NOT pay for registrations? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-did-absolutely-nothing-wrong-no-longer-true/577467.md?page=5)