# ACORN "pimp" arrested for illegally accessing Senate office; tampering with phone system **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 26, 2010, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-pimp-arrested-for-illegally-accessing-senate-office-tampering-with-phone-system/526586 "2010-01-26T23:13:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-pimp-arrested-for-illegally-accessing-senate-office-tampering-with-phone-system/526586/461 "2010-06-07T13:17:44Z")
“Yes, but _Michael Moore_…” ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-pimp-arrested-for-illegally-accessing-senate-office-tampering-with-phone-system/526586/462 "2010-06-07T13:24:19Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Even when Moore is condemned, the condemnation is often tepid, and doesn’t contain nearly the vitriol that was leveled at O’Keefe. So it’s an incontrovertible fact that they’re equivalent and deserve equal levels of condemnation and anger, and anyone who won’t do so is a partisan hack? ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-pimp-arrested-for-illegally-accessing-senate-office-tampering-with-phone-system/526586/463 "2010-06-07T13:31:36Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > “Yes, but _Michael Moore_…” …and Lewinsky had a lemon party. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-pimp-arrested-for-illegally-accessing-senate-office-tampering-with-phone-system/526586/464 "2010-06-07T14:25:23Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No. > > Even when Moore is condemned, the condemnation is often tepid, and doesn’t contain nearly the vitriol that was leveled at O’Keefe. And many of the posts in that thread DEFEND Moore instead of excoriating him. That would be because Moore and O’Keefe are NOT equivalent. I think some people have even said this already. How about if you try to defend O’Keefe in this thread, and move to the other thread to talk about how Moore is a dishonest hack, mkay? ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-pimp-arrested-for-illegally-accessing-senate-office-tampering-with-phone-system/526586/465 "2010-06-07T14:53:47Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > That would be because Moore and O’Keefe are NOT equivalent. I think some people have even said this already. > > How about if you try to defend O’Keefe in this thread, and move to the other thread to talk about how Moore is a dishonest hack, mkay? Hasn’t he tried enough? His defense was: O’Keefe is like Moore, liberals love Moore, ipso facto liberals love O’Keefe. It failed. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-pimp-arrested-for-illegally-accessing-senate-office-tampering-with-phone-system/526586/466 "2010-06-07T14:59:16Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > So it’s an incontrovertible fact that they’re equivalent and deserve equal levels of condemnation and anger, and anyone who won’t do so is a partisan hack? Their methods are equivalent. Anyone who purports to condemn O’Keefe’s methods alone, and not Moore’s with equal vigor, is acting in partisan bias. Their results are not equivalent. One may condemn O’Keefe more strongly than Moore without partisanship if the basis for the condemnation is a judgment of both methods and results. (My earlier analogy for this was a harsher punishment of a spray-paint vandal than for a chalk vandal). ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-pimp-arrested-for-illegally-accessing-senate-office-tampering-with-phone-system/526586/467 "2010-06-07T15:02:46Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > That would be because Moore and O’Keefe are NOT equivalent. I think some people have even said this already. > > How about if you try to defend O’Keefe in this thread, and move to the other thread to talk about how Moore is a dishonest hack, mkay? Because the problem is that people here will say, “O’Keefe is a monster! He lies, he misleads, he edits to make his targets look bad, and takes quotes out of context! It’s horrible!” And in the other thread, they’ll say, “Meh. Moore may mislead, and take quotes out of context, and edits to make his targets look bad, but he’s an entertainer, and he tells a story that needs to be told! If anyone believes Moore, it’s their own fault!” So it’s obvious why you want me to uncouple the two subjects. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-pimp-arrested-for-illegally-accessing-senate-office-tampering-with-phone-system/526586/468 "2010-06-07T15:17:17Z")
Moore doesn’t fake footage or lie about his targets. Even if he did, that’s got nothing to do with O’Keefe. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-pimp-arrested-for-illegally-accessing-senate-office-tampering-with-phone-system/526586/469 "2010-06-07T15:18:25Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Their methods are equivalent. Anyone who purports to condemn O’Keefe’s methods alone, and not Moore’s with equal vigor, is acting in partisan bias. Really? Moore has dubbed in voiceovers to change the context of the footage? ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-pimp-arrested-for-illegally-accessing-senate-office-tampering-with-phone-system/526586/470 "2010-06-07T15:21:03Z")
Yes. Just like we should uncouple hispanic rights and gay marriage. They’re the same thing. The same thing! Also, they weigh the same as a duck and are therefore, a witch. Moore’s a lying liar. O’Keefe’s a lying liar PLUS he’s also a failed Ashton Kutcher. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-pimp-arrested-for-illegally-accessing-senate-office-tampering-with-phone-system/526586/471 "2010-06-07T15:43:28Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > Really? Moore has dubbed in voiceovers to change the context of the footage? He ran a “speech” from Heston that was actually multiple speeches, on different days, and different sections from the same speech, all knitted together as though it was one continuous segment. How is that different? After all, he did actually record his voiceover, just at a different time. Moore shows Heston holding a musket over his head, saying, “I have only five words for you: ‘from my cold, dead, hands.’” Moore’s voiceover says, “Just ten days after the Columbine killings, despite the pleas of a community in mourning, Charleton Heston came to Denver and held a large pro-gun rally for the National Rifle Association.” But the ‘cold dead hands’ part of the speech was a YEAR removed from Denver, in Charlotte, North Carolina. So, yes. Moore has dubbed in voiceovers to change the context of the footage. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-pimp-arrested-for-illegally-accessing-senate-office-tampering-with-phone-system/526586/472 "2010-06-07T15:58:42Z")
No, he hasn’t. Those examples are not comparable. He has not dubbed in fake audio to amke it appear that his subjects are responding to different questions that what they were asked. A selective montage of speech clips shown in conjunction with commentary is not the same thing. Moore never said that the “cold dead hands” clip was from Heston’s trip to Denver after Columbine. O’Keefe actually lied directly about how he presented himself, what he asked and faked the audio to support a narrative that didn’t happen in reality. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-pimp-arrested-for-illegally-accessing-senate-office-tampering-with-phone-system/526586/473 "2010-06-07T16:14:46Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And in the other thread, they’ll say, “Meh. Moore may mislead, and take quotes out of context, and edits to make his targets look bad, but he’s an entertainer, and he tells a story that needs to be told! If anyone believes Moore, it’s their own fault!” Actually, nobody has said that, here or in the other thread. You have just made this up. Would you like some extra straw? In fact, most people in the other thread have **critisized** Moore’s tactics, and said that they take away from any message he may have. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-pimp-arrested-for-illegally-accessing-senate-office-tampering-with-phone-system/526586/474 "2010-06-07T16:24:36Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Actually, nobody has said that, here or in the other thread. You have just made this up. Here. > [@Michael Moore is a Dishonest Hack](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-dishonest-hack/541915/14): > > I dunno. I think Michael Moore makes some very good points. Take him for what he’s worth though. He’s not a journalist and only provides HIS side of any story, but he’s entertaining. > [@Michael Moore is a Dishonest Hack](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-dishonest-hack/541915/20): > > Manipulative one-sided storyteller perhaps, but I’d like a solid example of Moore’s dishonesty. Bonus points if the dishonesty was pointed out by a court or independent board/panel. > ETA: Not a particular fan of Moore’s films, although his very early work was enthusiastically done. > [@Michael Moore is a Dishonest Hack](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-dishonest-hack/541915/25): > > Since I don’t live in a black and white world, I have no problem taking Michael Moore for what he is, an entertainer. Yes, he makes some good points, and does so in quite humorous manner some times. But I’m not looking to him for hard evidence or the last word on anything. Same goes for Jon Stewart. It’s funny, sometimes it makes me think but it ain’t the last word. > > Do I understand why some don’t like him? Sure. I have no problem with that. I don’t find Glen Beck entertaining and I think he’s an idiot. It takes all kinds to make a world, I figure. > [@Michael Moore is a Dishonest Hack](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-dishonest-hack/541915/32): > > I too would question the “dishonest” portion, however. He’s not fair and balanced - because he’s not trying to be. So he’s definitely not bringing up all the other side’s arguments. But that doesn’t make him dishonest. > [@Michael Moore is a Dishonest Hack](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-dishonest-hack/541915/39): > > That scene wasn’t faked. > [@Michael Moore is a Dishonest Hack](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-dishonest-hack/541915/41): > > It wasn’t staged. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-pimp-arrested-for-illegally-accessing-senate-office-tampering-with-phone-system/526586/475 "2010-06-07T16:27:29Z")
Moore doesn’t stage or fake things. That is a fact. I’m also tired of this diversionary tactic. Nothing Michael Moore does forgives anything that James O’Keefe does. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-pimp-arrested-for-illegally-accessing-senate-office-tampering-with-phone-system/526586/476 "2010-06-07T17:29:04Z")
I"m sorry **Bricker** , In your quoted pieces above I don’t see anyone saying “If anyone believes Moore, it’s their own fault!” I don’t see anyone saying "he tells a story that needs to be told! " I don’t see anyone saying “he misleads and takes quotes out of context” I see people saying that Moore is an entertainer, so you got that part right anyway. Is this one of those arguments where if you get 25% right, you give yourself a passing grade? And **Diogenes** was right - the scenes referred to were not staged or faked. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-pimp-arrested-for-illegally-accessing-senate-office-tampering-with-phone-system/526586/477 "2010-06-07T17:40:08Z")
Moore is a propagandist. I don’t pay him much heed, because I already pretty much know what he has to tell me. If he tells someone something that pisses them off, and they go and find the truth of the thing, that’s all good. I _want_ people to go and find the truth of the thing, whatsoever it may be. If that takes an exaggerating propagandist, so be it. But Moore doesn’t create the circumstances wherein he propagandizes, the situation already exists, and he offers a slanted take on it. O’Keefe created his situation out of whole cloth, he made it up, and then further altered the facts to a pre-arranged end. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-pimp-arrested-for-illegally-accessing-senate-office-tampering-with-phone-system/526586/478 "2010-06-07T17:56:39Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > I"m sorry **Bricker** , In your quoted pieces above I don’t see anyone saying “If anyone believes Moore, it’s their own fault!” Here: > [@Michael Moore is a Dishonest Hack](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-dishonest-hack/541915/117): > > > [@](#): > > > > to the very people who look to him to bring the truth down from the mountain > > Say what now? > > If you choose to see things that way, that’s on you. In truth most people are not looking for him to ‘bring the truth down from the mountain’. He’s looking to entertain people and maybe make them think about a couple of things from a different viewpoint. That’s it. My understanding is that he hasn’t claimed otherwise. > [@](#): > > I don’t see anyone saying "he tells a story that needs to be told! " Here: > [@Michael Moore is a Dishonest Hack](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-dishonest-hack/541915/155): > > There is a lot of information and truth in Moore’s films . > [@Michael Moore is a Dishonest Hack](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-dishonest-hack/541915/138): > > And finds out that even though Moore exaggerated the specifics, in general, the practice he invites us to abhor is real. Case two is now apprised of a fact he never would have gotten any other way. He has the creepy moment of doubt, hey, those leftys were actually right about something. > > And, in Heaven, another angel gets his internet connection… > [@Michael Moore is a Dishonest Hack](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-dishonest-hack/541915/111): > > Granted, that may seem like a fairly obvious point, but I had just never really thought about it, and the movie did a very good job of bringing that point home to me. > [@](#): > > I don’t see anyone saying “he misleads and takes quotes out of context” Misleading: > [@Michael Moore is a Dishonest Hack](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/michael-moore-is-a-dishonest-hack/541915/18): > > And for the record, I don’t really give a damn about Moore either. I can see enough misleading footage on basic cable without shelling out movie ticket prices for it. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![descamisado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@descamisado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/descamisado)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-pimp-arrested-for-illegally-accessing-senate-office-tampering-with-phone-system/526586/479 "2010-06-07T18:18:01Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > O’Keefe’s a lying liar PLUS he’s also a failed Ashton Kutcher. Damn, dude, I know this is the Pit but that’s just really harsh. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-pimp-arrested-for-illegally-accessing-senate-office-tampering-with-phone-system/526586/480 "2010-06-07T18:20:05Z")
Not to mention that Moore gets in people’s faces with full-on production crews, not some lapel camera he picked up at Sharper Image. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-pimp-arrested-for-illegally-accessing-senate-office-tampering-with-phone-system/526586.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-pimp-arrested-for-illegally-accessing-senate-office-tampering-with-phone-system/526586.md?page=25)