# ACORN submits fraudulent voter registrations en masse **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 8, 2008, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984 "2008-10-08T13:55:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2008, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/301 "2008-10-12T23:02:59Z")
Weird link. Try [=22383&tx\_ttnews[backPid]=12387&cHash=41ba018b65"]here]([http://www.acorn.org/index.php?id=12439&tx\_ttnews](http://www.acorn.org/index.php?id=12439&tx_ttnews)[tt\_news). ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2008, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/302 "2008-10-12T23:15:28Z")
From [this article](http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2007/05/06/missouri_attorney_a_focus_in_firings/?page=full) from 2007: > [@](#): > > That summer, the liberal activist group ACORN paid workers $8 an hour to sign up new voters in poor neighborhoods around the country. Later, ACORN’s Kansas City chapter discovered that several workers filled out registration forms fraudulently instead of finding real people to sign up. ACORN fired the workers and alerted law enforcement. Considering that this firing and alerting of law enforcement led to the indictment of 4 former ACORN employees, I tend strongly to believe that ACORN _does_ report these sorts of fraudulent registrations. So, not only are they required by law (at least in some jurisdictions. I can’t speak to all) to submit all registrations, I find their claims that they segregate out the suspicious ones and report guilty employees to be very credible. The OP continues his silence, though. Shocker. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2008, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/303 "2008-10-12T23:31:43Z")
To get to the statement to which **gonzomax** tried to link, try clicking on [http://www.acorn.org/index.php?id=12340](http://www.acorn.org/index.php?id=12340) and then clicking on **[more]** to see the full text. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2008, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/304 "2008-10-12T23:38:01Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > To get to the statement to which **gonzomax** tried to link, try clicking on [http://www.acorn.org/index.php?id=12340](http://www.acorn.org/index.php?id=12340) and then clicking on **[more]** to see the full text. I linked to it in in post #301 but didn’t label it. ---
**Author:** ![descamisado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@descamisado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/descamisado)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2008, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/305 "2008-10-13T18:20:54Z")
> [@Raygun99](#): > > Six pages in and I’m left with my only thought being - “this is no way to run a railroad, people.” **Private** companies registering people to vote? The mind reels and it’s a wonder the whole system hasn’t blown up before now. I’m not sure which private companies you’re referring to but this is ACORN’s description of its organization and by extension mission: > [@](#): > > “ACORN is a non-profit, non-partisan social justice organization with national headquarters in New York, New Orleans and Washington, D.C.” This link lists descriptions of various of their missions: [http://www.acorn.org/index.php?id=12342](http://www.acorn.org/index.php?id=12342). They are not a private company, but an organization whose focus is commnunity organizing and advocacy, into which voter registration – including by contract – fits perfectly. **jsgoddess** , I noticing the silence too. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2008, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/306 "2008-10-13T18:58:59Z")
[http://www.democrats.com/node/17958](http://www.democrats.com/node/17958) This is the same info. The repubs like to find someone to blame but it is self serving. ACORN works hard to stop false registrations but they do not have the authority to reject them. They send them along but flag them as likely fraudulent. ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2008, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/307 "2008-10-13T19:06:31Z")
> [@5-4-Fighting](#): > > I’m not sure which private companies you’re referring to but this is ACORN’s description of its organization and by extension mission: > > This link lists descriptions of various of their missions: [http://www.acorn.org/index.php?id=12342](http://www.acorn.org/index.php?id=12342). > > They are not a private company, but an organization whose focus is commnunity organizing and advocacy, into which voter registration – including by contract – fits perfectly. Perhaps “private” is not the most precise word to use, but I mean “non-governmental”. ---
**Author:** ![descamisado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@descamisado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/descamisado)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2008, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/308 "2008-10-13T19:13:34Z")
> [@Raygun99](#): > > Perhaps “private” is not the most precise word to use, but I mean “non-governmental”. Fair enough. However, I think it’s okay for any non-partisan commnunity group to make the effect to reach out to the citizenry in an effort to increase the abysmal voting rates in this country, in effect, taking the means of voting to the people. Any such effort that has any measurable results is bound to have some deficiencies and errors, in this case caused by lazy workers. Questionable and rejectable applications, by the way, also can and do occur when voter registrations come from governmental sources. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2008, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/309 "2008-10-13T19:15:14Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > [Democrats.com is the first progressive video hub.](http://www.democrats.com/node/17958) This is the same info. The repubs like to find someone to blame but it is self serving. ACORN works hard to stop false registrations but they do not have the authority to reject them. They send them along but flag them as likely fraudulent. ACORN tries to stop false registrations. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. This goes along with their statement that they’re non-partisan. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2008, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/310 "2008-10-13T19:45:48Z")
Acorn’s very model for voter registration - hiring relatively poor people and paying them for registration quotas - is guaranteed to produce this level of fraud, and they know it. They occasionally turn in the more egregious examples to maintain a cover of impartiality, but come on… They’ve set up a system where the employees they hire to collect registrations have a strong financial incentive to cheat. This gives ACORN itself deniability and puts the blame on the employee, while still ensuring that the maximum number of registrations are delivered - real or not. If they really wanted to prevent fraud, there is a very simple thing they could do - whenever a canvasser turns in a pile of registrations, conduct a random audit of 10% of them. If any of them turn up fraudulent, the employee doesn’t get paid. Or, they could pay people by the hour instead of by the number of registrations they collect. There are lots of businesses out there that do similar things - polling firms, telemarketers, flyer delivery companies, etc. They all put processes in place to make sure the information they get from their low-paid work force is accurate. ACORN does none of these things. If this were a regular business, and the business had a policy of paying employees in such a way that it encouraged employees to cheat customers, you guys would be screaming bloody murder. But if ACORN does it, well hey, social justice. As for ACORN being bipartisan - Can anyone point to a link showing that they do voter registration drives in poor Republican areas? Or that any of the numerous protests they engage in support Republican causes? Or that they’ve come out in support of proposals by Republican politicians? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2008, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/311 "2008-10-13T19:51:34Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > As for ACORN being bipartisan - Can anyone point to a link showing that they do voter registration drives in poor Republican areas? Or that any of the numerous protests they engage in support Republican causes? Or that they’ve come out in support of proposals by Republican politicians? So what? They’re a left-progressive organization. I daresay they might support a Pub candidate if said candidate came out in support of social justice as ACORN defines it – but that never happens, does it? And that’s not ACORN’s fault, it’s the Pubs’. If a serious new party to the left of the Dems were to emerge, **then** I suppose ACORN’s support would be up for grabs. Otherwise, their default position will be for the Dems for the same reason African-American voters’ default position is for the Dems – because they have nowhere else to go. ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2008, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/312 "2008-10-13T19:56:19Z")
Thanks Sam I get it now ACORNs cunning plan is: 1. Purposely register many non existent voters. 2.??? 2. Profit It makes sense now… ---
**Author:** ![descamisado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@descamisado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/descamisado)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2008, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/313 "2008-10-13T20:02:54Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Acorn’s very model for voter registration - hiring relatively poor people and paying them for registration quotas - is guaranteed to produce this level of fraud, and they know it. They occasionally turn in the more egregious examples to maintain a cover of impartiality, but come on… So, if ACORN is turning in only the occasional more egregious examples of fraudulent application to the government entity which processes the valid ones into the system, then _exactly_ what are they doing with the ones they’re holding back that results in those withheld applications benefitting ACORN or any partisan cause? And I do note that you said the system is set up so ACORN meets its quota but what lesser purpose would setting a quota while acknowledging some percentage of possible reject serve the voter registration drive? ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2008, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/314 "2008-10-13T20:54:40Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Acorn’s very model for voter registration - hiring relatively poor people and paying them for registration quotas - is guaranteed to produce this level of fraud, and they know it. I’m not sure how that impugns ACORN or the registrations they turn in. The “fraud” is being perpetrated on ACORN, not the public. Not to needlessly delve into esoteric parsing of legal definitions (we already have someone for that), but even by the loosest definition, fraud requires both an intent to deceive _and_ an intent to benefit. Assuming your assertion that “hiring relatively poor people and paying them for registration quotas - is guaranteed to produce this level of fraud, and [ACORN] knows it” is correct, then isn’t the fraud being perpetrated on _ACORN_? The poor person is deceiving ACORN into paying them for not doing a full day’s work — how is the public defrauded, and how could a political party benefit? I guess you could make the argument that it takes more effort on the election board’s part to deal with the extra registrations. But your own characterization of the situation suggests that people are filling out false registrations in order to get paid that day, **not** to show up on election day and vote under false pretenses. In the meantime, you have an organization that is working to get underrepresented people registered to vote and paying more than it should per actual voter registered, a societal good. I’m honestly not sure where the societal harm is. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2008, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/315 "2008-10-13T21:30:12Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Or, they could pay people by the hour instead of by the number of registrations they collect. They do pay by the hour. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2008, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/316 "2008-10-13T21:34:56Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > They do pay by the hour. With an expected quota. ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2008, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/317 "2008-10-13T21:41:11Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > If they really wanted to prevent fraud, there is a very simple thing they could do - whenever a canvasser turns in a pile of registrations, conduct a random audit of 10% of them. If any of them turn up fraudulent, the employee doesn’t get paid. Not a bad idea. Of course, by law, they’d still have to turn those obviously fraudulent registration forms in. The fact is that the number of bogus registrations turned in was very small compared to the total. That tells me that they probably do have decent quality control measures in place. If ACORN really was encouraging (or not actively discouraging) fraudulent forms, why did they make up less than 1% of the total? > [@](#): > > Or, they could pay people by the hour instead of by the number of registrations they collect. According to multiple cites upthread, this is what they do. They used to pay by the registration, but now they pay by the hour. The workers say they were expected to turn in a certain number of forms per shift, but that’s just common sense. > [@](#): > > There are lots of businesses out there that do similar things - polling firms, telemarketers, flyer delivery companies, etc. They all put processes in place to make sure the information they get from their low-paid work force is accurate. ACORN does none of these things. What makes you say that? ACORN claims that it uses strong quality control measures, and the facts back that up; out of 80,000 voter registration forms they turned in in Las Vegas, 300 were bogus. Less than half of a percent. If they wanted their workers to turn in bogus forms (for some reason I have yet to understand) they failed miserably. ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2008, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/318 "2008-10-13T21:55:42Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > With an expected quota. Pretty sure most factories that pay hourly for piece work set quotas. When come back bring relevance… ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2008, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/319 "2008-10-13T22:10:54Z")
I’m guessing that ACORN field workers don’t have the authority to refuse to take a registration if they feel the person they are talking to appears fraudulent. Does anyone know? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2008, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/320 "2008-10-13T22:28:15Z")
> [@DoctorJ](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Originally Posted by **Sam Stone** > > If they really wanted to prevent fraud, there is a very simple thing they could do - whenever a canvasser turns in a pile of registrations, conduct a random audit of 10% of them. If any of them turn up fraudulent, the employee doesn’t get paid. > > Not a bad idea. Of course, by law, they’d still have to turn those obviously fraudulent registration forms in. It’s a terrible idea. You can’t refuse to pay someone for work already performed, even if it doesn’t meet quality control standards\*. That’s just a license for the business to abuse its workers. You **could** , however, in the instance of a failed 10% audit, conduct a 100% audit of that worker’s output, suspend him for a period. Second suspension establishes a pattern and is grounds for firing. \*IANAL, and I don’t know if it is legal to withhold pay on the grounds of an otherwise satisfied quota having quality compliance issues. If it is, it’s still WRONG as hell. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984.md?page=17)