# ACORN submits fraudulent voter registrations en masse **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 8, 2008, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984 "2008-10-08T13:55:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![RyJae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@RyJae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RyJae)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2008, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/321 "2008-10-13T22:33:52Z")
How many places can a person register to vote? I looked here in Pennsylvania. When you visit the DMV for licensing, IDing etc. Print out form, fill out form, mail out form. State offices that provide public assistance and services to persons with disabilities Armed Forces Recruitment Centers County Clerk of Orphans’ Court offices, including each Marriage License Bureau Area Agencies on Aging Centers for Independent Living County Mental Health and Mental Retardation offices Student disability services offices of the State System of Higher Education Offices of Special Education DA Complementary Paratransit offices And I am sure many other places. What I am asking is what is the need for groups such as ACORN or any organization on the right that does it? If people cannot do it I understand, but this seems like a case of people not wanting to register. If someone cannot even spend the time registering by themselves I don’t think they bring anything to the polls. If they vote at all actually. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2008, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/322 "2008-10-13T22:48:01Z")
> [@RyJae](#): > > If someone cannot even spend the time registering by themselves I don’t think they bring anything to the polls. If they vote at all actually. They bring a citizen’s right to vote to the polls. I consider that valuable. Mileage appears to vary. ---
**Author:** ![RyJae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@RyJae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RyJae)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2008, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/323 "2008-10-13T22:57:02Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > They bring a citizen’s right to vote to the polls. I consider that valuable. Mileage appears to vary. You mean before ACORN they couldn’t go to any of those places I listed and registered to vote themselves? If so I’m sorry I didn’t realize they were being denied the right to vote. I thought they just chose not to give a shit until someone came and shoved the papers in front of them. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2008, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/324 "2008-10-13T22:59:21Z")
> [@RyJae](#): > > You mean before ACORN they couldn’t go to any of those places I listed and registered to vote themselves? If so I’m sorry I didn’t realize they were being denied the right to vote. I thought they just chose not to give a shit until someone came and shoved the papers in front of them. You asked what they brought to the polls. They bring their right to vote. That’s sufficient. You’re trying to claim that if someone is lazy about voting it’s better they don’t. I’m saying that it’s better they do, lazy or “worthy” or not. ---
**Author:** ![RyJae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@RyJae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RyJae)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2008, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/325 "2008-10-13T23:14:21Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > You asked what they brought to the polls. They bring their right to vote. That’s sufficient. You’re trying to claim that if someone is lazy about voting it’s better they don’t. I’m saying that it’s better they do, lazy or “worthy” or not. Ignorance truly is bliss is your position and I disagree I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2008, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/326 "2008-10-13T23:17:46Z")
> [@askeptic](#): > > Pretty sure most factories that pay hourly for piece work set quotas. When come back bring relevance… The relevance is that they are paid to bring in X number of votes per hour. It’s a de facto quota. And they’re bribing people in Ohio with cigarettes/money/sob-story along with a promise that it’s OK to register more than once. The simplest solution would be a progressive fine for anyone committing voter fraud that eventually leads to jail and loss of voting privileges. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2008, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/327 "2008-10-13T23:18:55Z")
> [@RyJae](#): > > Ignorance truly is bliss is your position and I disagree I guess. Where did I suggest that ignorance is bliss? I’m saying that they have a right to vote, and I am saying that more people exercising that right is a good thing. You seem to be wanting only the right sort of people to vote. I reject that attitude, which led to a lot of horrible barriers put up to prevent African Americans in particular from voting. They are just as much citizens as I am and have just as many rights as I do. I want their input. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2008, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/328 "2008-10-13T23:23:06Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > You’re trying to claim that if someone is lazy about voting it’s better they don’t. I’m saying that it’s better they do, lazy or “worthy” or not. Why? ---
**Author:** ![RyJae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@RyJae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RyJae)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2008, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/329 "2008-10-13T23:25:23Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Where did I suggest that ignorance is bliss? > > I’m saying that they have a right to vote, and I am saying that more people exercising that right is a good thing. You seem to be wanting only the right sort of people to vote. I reject that attitude, which led to a lot of horrible barriers put up to prevent African Americans in particular from voting. > > They are just as much citizens as I am and have just as many rights as I do. I want their input. I only want someone who wants to vote to vote. If someone wants to vote they probably research a little before voting. They don’t take anything Bill O’Reilly or Keith Olbermann says as gospel. They like a candidate or don’t like a candidate based on that thinking process. Agreeing or disagreeing with policies, wanting better for themselves and the country. Whether they agree with the views or despise the views I would rather people know a bit about the issues. Is it racist to say that? I hope not, because every person I have ever met can make the same mental calculations as I can and assuming they cannot seems to be more racist. ---
**Author:** ![AdmiralCrunch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6f9a4e/32.png) [@AdmiralCrunch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AdmiralCrunch)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2008, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/330 "2008-10-13T23:37:38Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > As for ACORN being bipartisan - Can anyone point to a link showing that they do voter registration drives in poor Republican areas? Or that any of the numerous protests they engage in support Republican causes? Or that they’ve come out in support of proposals by Republican politicians? They’re **non-partisan** , just like gay-hating, pro-life, anti-immigration, tax-free churches. And poor republican areas? You mean like sparsely populated rural areas that would be impossible to register by walking? You’ll see ACORN organize in republican areas when the republican party starts giving a shit about urban poverty. Don’t hold your breath. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2008, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/331 "2008-10-13T23:41:17Z")
> [@RyJae](#): > > I only want someone who wants to vote to vote. You think ACORN is forcing people to vote? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2008, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/332 "2008-10-13T23:52:13Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > You asked what they brought to the polls. They bring their right to vote. That’s sufficient. You’re trying to claim that if someone is lazy about voting it’s better they don’t. I’m saying that it’s better they do, lazy or “worthy” or not. The point is, their right to vote exists whether ACORN exists or not. ---
**Author:** ![RyJae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@RyJae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RyJae)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2008, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/333 "2008-10-13T23:58:19Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > You think ACORN is forcing people to vote? You don’t seem to think that the people ACORN are recruiting are capable of registering without them. And I am making the decision that if the people who are arm twisted\* into registering will either not vote or bring no thought process into who they vote for when they vote. And both options suck. I’d like everyone capable of voting making an informed decision and voting and actually wanting to do so. - Showing up at your door is arm twisting, I’d re-register just to get someone to let me the fuck alone. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/334 "2008-10-14T00:01:30Z")
> [@AdmiralCrunch](#): > > They’re **non-partisan** , just like gay-hating, pro-life, anti-immigration, tax-free churches. And poor republican areas? You mean like sparsely populated rural areas that would be impossible to register by walking? You’ll see ACORN organize in republican areas when the republican party starts giving a shit about urban poverty. Don’t hold your breath. I’m not sure what you’re argument is here. Is it that it’s difficult, as a practical matter, for ACORN to sign voters up in rural areas because walking door-to-door? Or that Republicans have not deemed themselves worthy in the eyes of ACORN? Obviously, the latter point would mean they they are a partisan organization, which they, and people in this thread, have denied. And if it’s the former, are you saying that they can’t be part of a Republican protest. Only those on the left? Again, that would be partisan, wouldn’t it? And finally, are you saying that you can think of no areas where poorer supposed Republican types might congregate, thereby making the notion of walking rural roads moot? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/335 "2008-10-14T00:36:34Z")
> [@RyJae](#): > > …\* Showing up at your door is arm twisting,… You have an amazingly low threshold of violence. I’ve had McCain supporters come to my door, didn’t even sic the dog on 'em! 'Course, he was drunk again, that’s partly why, right there. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/336 "2008-10-14T00:38:16Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The relevance is that they are paid to bring in X number of votes per hour. It’s a de facto quota. And they’re bribing people in Ohio with cigarettes/money/sob-story along with a promise that it’s OK to register more than once. > > The simplest solution would be a progressive fine for anyone committing voter fraud that eventually leads to jail and loss of voting privileges. I’m sorry to be pedantic, but would you kindly take a look at my questions in post #314? Assuming we’re not debating whether to donate to ACORN instead of some other group, assuming we’re not deciding on what to base SDMB Voter-Registration Organization management practices based on, and assuming we’re not debating the merits of hiring ACORN management, _where is the societal harm_? Following your very own logic, in what way does this change the outcome of the actual vote? I will of course grant that it makes for a larger burden on the county registrar, but that does not seem to be your complaint. If an ACORN worker bribes “people in Ohio with cigarettes/money/sob-story along with a promise that it’s OK to register more than once,” they certainly pulled a fast one on ACORN, but how does that possibly impact on the vote in Ohio? Are suggesting that they are simultaneously too lazy to get good registrations (and hence make things up to meet their quota), _and_ so proactive as to follow up on these bogus registrations on election day? Or are you lamenting that the overall mission of ACORN’s voter registration drives — empowering the traditionally unempowered — and their reputation is being needlessly sullied by a small number of lazy workers and some opportunistic politicians? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/337 "2008-10-14T00:45:49Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Acorn’s very model for voter registration - hiring relatively poor people and paying them for registration quotas - is guaranteed to produce this level of fraud, and they know it. They occasionally turn in the more egregious examples to maintain a cover of impartiality, but come on… They’ve set up a system where the employees they hire to collect registrations have a strong financial incentive to cheat. This gives ACORN itself deniability and puts the blame on the employee, while still ensuring that the maximum number of registrations are delivered - real or not. > > If they really wanted to prevent fraud, there is a very simple thing they could do - whenever a canvasser turns in a pile of registrations, conduct a random audit of 10% of them. If any of them turn up fraudulent, the employee doesn’t get paid. Or, they could pay people by the hour instead of by the number of registrations they collect. > > There are lots of businesses out there that do similar things - polling firms, telemarketers, flyer delivery companies, etc. They all put processes in place to make sure the information they get from their low-paid work force is accurate. ACORN does none of these things. > > If this were a regular business, and the business had a policy of paying employees in such a way that it encouraged employees to cheat customers, you guys would be screaming bloody murder. But if ACORN does it, well hey, social justice. > > As for ACORN being bipartisan - Can anyone point to a link showing that they do voter registration drives in poor Republican areas? Or that any of the numerous protests they engage in support Republican causes? Or that they’ve come out in support of proposals by Republican politicians? They can not refuse to pass on the applications, no matter how bad they appear to be. They do not have the authority to do it. They pass them along with a red flag saying they have reason to think Zeke ZZZpt does not exist. Then the election commission has to make the decision. ACORN is mostly in poor neighborhoods. Any repubs who register with them will have their applications processed and passed on. There are no poor republican areas. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/338 "2008-10-14T00:48:30Z")
> [@RyJae](#): > > - Showing up at your door is arm twisting, I’d re-register just to get someone to let me the fuck alone. By that metric, there are an awful lot of thugs in politics. Judge Luann Cooperrider not only showed up at my door, but MY GOD she left one of those little stacks of notepaper. I’d better get a restraining order, but MY GOD! She’d be the one I had to go to to get it! _sob sob_ People aren’t being forced to vote. People are being encouraged to register and encouraged to vote. Being encouraged to register is a good thing, as it allows citizens to exercise their rights if they so choose. Voting is a good thing, even when it allows people you don’t like to vote. I even want _Republicans_ and other terrifying people to vote. Imagine that! ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/339 "2008-10-14T00:50:40Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > There are no poor republican areas. Oh, this couldn’t be more wrong. I live in a very poor area that often votes Republican. But a weird thing about this area is that we have very high voter turnout. Gosh, in 2004 we had more votes than voters, and Bush won. Imagine that! ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/340 "2008-10-14T00:55:51Z")
[ACORN officially endorsed](http://www.thenation.com/blogs/campaignmatters?bid=45&pid=289192)Obama. There’s nothing bi-partisan about the organization. They are specifically signing up Democratic voters and have taken $800,000 from Obama to do this. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984.md?page=18)