# ACORN submits fraudulent voter registrations en masse **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 8, 2008, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984 "2008-10-08T13:55:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/341 "2008-10-14T01:01:13Z")
> [@RyJae](#): > > I only want someone who wants to vote to vote. If someone wants to vote they probably research a little before voting. But organizations like ACORN don’t make people vote. They simply get them **registered** to vote. If the registered voters still have no interest in voting, then they won’t bother to vote. Indeed, I’d guess most of the people registered by ACORN et al. won’t vote anyway. But the act of registration might get some people interested in looking at the candidates and the issues, and those people may vote. Such drives can also serve to show people who might otherwise have been scared away by voter suppression efforts that they’re safe to register and vote. In any case, we’re now on Page 4 and the OP still cannot explain how anyone has been hurt by this except ACORN themselves. ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/342 "2008-10-14T01:02:59Z")
> [@](#): > > There are no poor republican areas. Sure there are–it’s called rural America. I don’t know how far ACORN has reached into rural areas; my impression of them is that they’re more focused on inner-city issues, but I could be wrong about that. I work with an organization called Kentuckians for the Commonwealth that’s analogous to ACORN–grassroots, organized at the community level, multi-issue, mostly lefty–and they register voters anywhere they can get people to sign them up, Democratic and Republican counties alike. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/343 "2008-10-14T01:05:51Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > They can not refuse to pass on the applications, no matter how bad they appear to be. They do not have the authority to do it. Cite? Sounds like you’re saying that if I take custody of a voter registration card (say, my neighbor hears I’m on my way to Town Hall and asks me to drop it off) I can face sanctions if I fail to do so. I think this was addressed upthread, but I don’t see it. So, how about a cite (or two, I’m assuming this is a state issue, not a Fed)? > [@Magiver](#): > > They are specifically signing up Democratic voters and have taken $800,000 from Obama to do this. Cite for the $800K figure? And really, if you want to substitute [MoveOn.org](http://MoveOn.org) instead of ACORN, and consider the motivations uber-partisan and specifically targeted at democratic voters (heck, you can even assume they’re allowed/do throw away any Republican votes) you still haven’t suggested what harm has come from this. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/344 "2008-10-14T01:06:37Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > [ACORN officially endorsed](http://www.thenation.com/blogs/campaignmatters?bid=45&pid=289192)Obama. There’s nothing bi-partisan about the organization. Who claimed they were bipartisan? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/345 "2008-10-14T01:09:14Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > Cite? > > Sounds like you’re saying that if I take custody of a voter registration card (say, my neighbor hears I’m on my way to Town Hall and asks me to drop it off) I can face sanctions if I fail to do so. You _should_ face sanctions if you deliberately destroy or hide or whatever the card or otherwise attempt to interfere with someone registering to vote, but I don’t know what the law is for you as a private citizen. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/346 "2008-10-14T01:18:28Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > [ACORN officially endorsed](http://www.thenation.com/blogs/campaignmatters?bid=45&pid=289192)Obama. There’s nothing bi-partisan about the organization. I think then that McCain just was reduced to be “nothing”. > **[Miami Dade College](https://www.mdc.edu/)** > > Miami Dade College is the largest institution of higher education in the country. Our eight campuses offer more than 300 educational pathways to a career. Senator John McCain and many others to speak at the rally at Miami Dade College Wolfson Campus. > [@](#): > > The rally will feature Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) as the headline speaker along with elected officials, immigrants and key local and national leaders. Sen. McCain is one of the chief sponsors of the Secure America and Orderly Immigration Act; bipartisan, comprehensive immigration reform legislation introduced last Congress and scheduled for consideration by the Senate in the coming weeks. A similar rally with Sen. McCain is planned for New York City on February 27 […] > > The rally in Miami is being sponsored by the New American Opportunity campaign (NAOC) in partnership with ACORN, Catholic Legal Services - Archdiocese of Miami, Florida Immigrant Advocacy Center, Florida Immigrant Coalition, Miami Dade College, People for the American Way/Mi Familia Vota en Acción, Service Employees International Union, and UNITE HERE. Like \*\*Fear Itself \*\*mentioned, they are not prevented from endorsing someone, they may support Obama now; but if McCain had not become Mr “who knows what is his position now”, on immigration in this case, I think ACORN would be saying something else now. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/347 "2008-10-14T01:35:09Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > You _should_ face sanctions if you deliberately destroy or hide or whatever the card or otherwise attempt to interfere with someone registering to vote, but I don’t know what the law is for you as a private citizen. Well, yeah, I would deserve a good sock in the eye by yon neighbor. But what about \*state \*sanctions? I assume that if YN gave me a love note to pass on to Sally after recess and I ditched it, there is no state sanction. Perhaps if he gave me a stamped envelope to her, there may be some postal regulation out there. And of course an energetic person may be able to come up with some civil penalty that I could be sued for by YN, but the cite request was for some law that made the failure to pass on someone else’s voter registration an offense. That it’s an organization doing it may be key, but again I think there should be some cite out there for why they are _required_ (as that’s the implication of the above posts). It’s fairly important, because if they are indeed required to turn over every card irrespective of what’s on it, then this whole thread (in which I’m still hard pressed to find a viable claim of harm) collapses into itself even further (hopefully dragging those polititicians who are raising the empty kerfuffle in the first place). Oh, please note that I reserve the right to change my mind if someone here can annunciate the harm – just because I don’t see it doesn’t mean it’s not there. Sam? McGiver? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/348 "2008-10-14T01:41:46Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > But organizations like ACORN don’t make people vote. They simply get them **registered** to vote. If the registered voters still have no interest in voting, then they won’t bother to vote. > > Indeed, I’d guess most of the people registered by ACORN et al. won’t vote anyway. Indeed. Once you’ve gathered all the information needed to secure an absentee ballot you’ve accomplished everything necessary to commit fraud. If few people actually show up to vote then those are cancelled out as duplicates and the rest of them are counted as if the people actually voted. In Ohio, the absentee ballot can be picked up in person. Early voting has begun ---
**Author:** ![AdmiralCrunch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6f9a4e/32.png) [@AdmiralCrunch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AdmiralCrunch)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/349 "2008-10-14T01:43:15Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I’m not sure what you’re argument is here. Is it that it’s difficult, as a practical matter, for ACORN to sign voters up in rural areas because walking door-to-door? Or that Republicans have not deemed themselves worthy in the eyes of ACORN? > > Obviously, the latter point would mean they they are a partisan organization, which they, and people in this thread, have denied. > > And if it’s the former, are you saying that they can’t be part of a Republican protest. Only those on the left? Again, that would be partisan, wouldn’t it? > > And finally, are you saying that you can think of no areas where poorer supposed Republican types might congregate, thereby making the notion of walking rural roads moot? Read what I wrote. They’re non-partisan in the same way that pro-life organizations are, which is in name only. I don’t speak for other people, and frankly don’t care that some people deny that organizations focusing on issues that affect urban poor lean democratic. And no, I’m not saying it’s impossible to register poor likely republican voters in some kind of centralized location. It’s just a waste of resources. To get the same number of registrations, you’d need to cover a huge geographic area and pester far more people. There’s also a smaller pool of labor, more travel required, and little ability to enact changes at a local level. When you’re fighting one landlord with 1000 tenants, community organizing makes sense. When you’re fighting 50 landlords with 75 tenants, community organizing isn’t that effective. In summary, it would be stupid and counter-productive for an organization dedicated to community organizing the poor to target republican areas, both because the republican party supports policies which tend to hurt the poor, and it’s logistically wasteful. ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/350 "2008-10-14T01:56:36Z")
Why the hell do some people think bipartisan means the same thing as neutral? ---
**Author:** ![plnnr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@plnnr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/plnnr)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/351 "2008-10-14T02:16:31Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > Well, yeah, I would deserve a good sock in the eye by yon neighbor. But what about \*state \*sanctions? > Oh, please note that I reserve the right to change my mind if someone here can annunciate the harm – just because I don’t see it doesn’t mean it’s not there. Sam? McGiver? [http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+24.2-1002.01](http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+24.2-1002.01) If any person (i) agrees to mail or deliver a signed voter registration application to the voter registrar or other appropriate person authorized to receive the application and (ii) intentionally interferes with the applicant’s effort to register either by destroying the application or by failing to mail or deliver the application in a timely manner, he shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor. The mailing or delivery of an application shall be deemed timely for the purposes of this section if it is mailed or delivered within 15 days of the applicant’s signature or in accordance with the provisions of § 24.2-416.4 for processing before the closing of the registration records for the pending election whichever comes first. This section shall not apply to any state or local government employee acting in his official capacity. If any person intentionally solicits multiple registrations from any one person or intentionally falsifies a registration application, he shall be guilty of a Class 5 felony. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/352 "2008-10-14T02:25:38Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > It’s fairly important, because if they are indeed required to turn over every card irrespective of what’s on it, then this whole thread (in which I’m still hard pressed to find a viable claim of harm) collapses into itself even further (hopefully dragging those polititicians who are raising the empty kerfuffle in the first place). That’s what most of us have been saying for the last while. The OP has ignored this basic fact and is now apparently in hiding. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/353 "2008-10-14T02:34:50Z")
> [@askeptic](#): > > Why the hell do some people think bipartisan means the same thing as neutral? Bipartisan implies a connection to both parties and this is not the case. ACORN is a socialist group which has endorsed Obama and in turn Obama has funded their registration drive. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/354 "2008-10-14T03:08:03Z")
Thanks **plnnr** , that’s the type of cite I was looking for. > [@Magiver](#): > > Indeed. Once you’ve gathered all the information needed to secure an absentee ballot you’ve accomplished everything necessary to commit fraud. If few people actually show up to vote then those are cancelled out as duplicates and the rest of them are counted as if the people actually voted. In Ohio, the absentee ballot can be picked up in person. Early voting has begun Would you mind terribly if I separated your accusations? That is, between earlier posts and this, you are accusing ACORN of: [ol] [li]Taking registration cards that have fake names on them and submitting them to the registrar of voters; [/li][li]Recording or otherwise keeping track of the fake names in order to request an absentee ballot and secretly fill that ballot out;[/li][li]Partisanship; and [/li][li]Receiving funding from the Barak Obama campaign.[/li] [/ol] As for 1 above, you have been very clear that this is a harm in itself, without it necessarily leading to the second (not that it doesn’t, but your earlier accusations were not connected). However, you have still not said what that harm is. As for 2, are you merely raising the specter of it as a possibility, or are you saying there is some credible (however thin) evidence that this is taking place? As for 3; other than fighting other posters’ ignorance (just simply assuming for the moment that they are a partisan organization), which is really enough to warrant disputing claims of neutrality or bipartisanship, how does their partisanship otherwise affect the claims in this thread? And lastly, where did you find the $800,000 figure you mentioned earlier? I don’t care if it’s hyperbole and the actual figure is marginally different, but you’ve now said twice that “Obama has funded their registration drive” as if this is an accepted fact (could be, I haven’t been able to find it, so I assume you know where to link). Wouldn’t this violate campaign finance laws? Wouldn’t it have been easier to work with the organization to send out Barak workers directly based on ACORN’s business model? And again, even if one accepts that he did fund them to that degree, why is it germane to the thread and what harm does it cause? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/355 "2008-10-14T03:11:25Z")
I really hate sloppy language usage. Is the term for ACORN “bipartisan”, or is it “nonpartisan”? No, they do not both mean the same thing. And, no, neither one of them necessarily means “neutral”. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/356 "2008-10-14T03:15:57Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Bipartisan implies a connection to both parties and this is not the case. ACORN is a socialist group which has endorsed Obama and in turn Obama has funded their registration drive. That is ridiculous . I was involved in registration for the Obama campaign. Because I worked for the campaign ,I went to places where I would probably register more likely Obama voters than Palin. Every single person I registered got turned in without exception. I did not know who they would vote for since there is no place on the registration for party declaration. It simply is a registration form. I had a couple people say they were voting for Nader. I had a couple say they weren’t voting for a nigger. They all got turned in. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/357 "2008-10-14T03:17:02Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > I really hate sloppy language usage. > > Is the term for ACORN “bipartisan”, or is it “nonpartisan”? No, they do not both mean the same thing. And, no, neither one of them necessarily means “neutral”. From their [About](http://www.acorn.org/index.php?id=12342)page: > [@](#): > > ACORN is a non-profit, non-partisan social justice organization with national headquarters in New York, New Orleans and Washington, D.C. ---
**Author:** ![AdmiralCrunch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6f9a4e/32.png) [@AdmiralCrunch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AdmiralCrunch)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/358 "2008-10-14T03:18:48Z")
As far as the 800K, or the [832,598](http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/11/us/politics/11acorn.html?_r=1&em&oref=slogin) more specifically, it was made by Barack Obama’s campaign during the Primary, not the Democratic Party. McCain or Giuliani could have paid CItizens Service, Inc. to get out the vote. Edit: I see that a couple folks have made my points for me already. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/359 "2008-10-14T03:23:40Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > ACORN is a socialist group 😕 Gee, can conservatives still call other people “socialist” with a straight face these days? Now that so many of them have come running for help to Nanny Government because they were playing with their nice new deregulated market and broke it and don’t know how to fix it? “Well it was Nanny’s fault it broke! She shouldn’t have been letting me play with it unsupervised, so it’s only fair she should have to pay for it!” Socialist wealth redistribution is looking like quite the bipartisan cause these days. The only major difference between the left and the right seems to be whether they want to redistribute it downwards or upwards. (Didja hear the one about the Bush administration having taken office 8 years ago as social conservatives, and now leaving office as conservative socialists?) ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/360 "2008-10-14T03:24:55Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Bipartisan implies a connection to both parties and this is not the case. ACORN is a socialist group. McCain was also “pallin” around with then, news to me that he was a socialist too! [http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmit/1008/Acorn\_pushes\_back\_hugs\_McCain.html](http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmit/1008/Acorn_pushes_back_hugs_McCain.html) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984.md?page=19)