# ACORN submits fraudulent voter registrations en masse **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 8, 2008, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984 "2008-10-08T13:55:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/381 "2008-10-14T14:43:13Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And I didn’t smear anything – ACORN’s own actions did. […] > > My criticism of their employees is for (at best) creating an environment in which violations of the law would predictably be frequent, or (at worst) participating in outright fraud. Let’s review the bidding, shall we? You opened with a very nasty and hostile OP sneering at what you described as ACORN’s “voter fraud attempts”, and later backpedaled: > [@Bricker in the OP](#): > > we have no GD thread yet on the rampant ACORN-assisted voter fraud attempts. […] > In Nevada, the offices of ACORN have been hard at work registering people for Bracak Obama. (I mean – registering disadvantaged voters. I’m sure ACORN doesn’t care who they vote for. :rolleyes:) > [@Bricker](#): > > Well, on more sober reflection, I think this is a tempest in a teapot, primarily because there doesn’t seem to be any reasonable way that the fake voters could actually vote. […] > So – I think the actual fraud is untentional on ACORN’s part, and is most likely the work of an otherwise unhireable temp worker who thinks it’s too hot to actually go outside and work – nothing more. While it was gracious of you to dial down the venom level on deciding that you had overreacted, I don’t think you can blame anyone for feeling that your original remarks were pretty smeary. ---
**Author:** ![RyJae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@RyJae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RyJae)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/382 "2008-10-14T14:44:23Z")
(HIJACK FOR A REGISTRATION QUESTION) I quickly went over the official website but I couldn’t find the answer. I checked my voter registration and it has me INACTIVE!! WTF I voted in 2006, skipped the primaries due to lack of candidate interest, but how does it make me inactive? And how do I change it back to active? :mad: (END HIJACK WITH APOLOGIES) ETA: Pennsylvania resident. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/383 "2008-10-14T14:59:51Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So, no - you may not smugly declare victory based on my absence. I don’t declare victory based on your absence. I declare victory based on the absence of anything resembling decency or argument coming from you. This thread speaks for itself very nicely. You continue to weasel and hide and, at this point, just make stuff up to make yourself feel better about your lame little gotchas. For the record, since you take such an interest, for about a year I have been unable to eat Chinese food. But when I did it would have been curry chicken with onion in front of the TV, not lo mein in front of the computer. Be sure to make a note so that you can have the correct info next time… Oh, that’s right. You don’t care about correct info. I forgot who I was talking to there for a second. ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/384 "2008-10-14T15:05:33Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Well, as the earlier comments have indicated, my criticism of them is not for “obeying the law.” My criticism of their employees is for (at best) creating an environment in which violations of the law would predictably be frequent, or (at worst) participating in outright fraud. In Las Vegas they turned in 300 bogus voter registrations out of 80,000–less than 1/2 of 1%. So you can conclude one of two things: –they created an environment in which violations of the law would predictably be frequent, and got spectacularly lucky, or –they created no such environment. If they were participating in outright fraud, they were doing a really shitty job of it. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/385 "2008-10-14T15:06:23Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > You have yet to explain how this could occur, given that ACORN noted all the suspect registrations when they were turned in to the registrar. I don’t accept this claim as fact. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/386 "2008-10-14T15:07:38Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Let’s review the bidding, shall we? You opened with a very nasty and hostile OP sneering at what you described as ACORN’s “voter fraud attempts”, and later backpedaled: > > While it was gracious of you to dial down the venom level on deciding that you had overreacted, I don’t think you can blame anyone for feeling that your original remarks were pretty smeary. Yes, they were, and on reflection, I amended them. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/387 "2008-10-14T15:09:45Z")
> [@DoctorJ](#): > > In Las Vegas they turned in 300 bogus voter registrations out of 80,000–less than 1/2 of 1%. So you can conclude one of two things: > –they created an environment in which violations of the law would predictably be frequent, and got spectacularly lucky, or > –they created no such environment. > > If they were participating in outright fraud, they were doing a really shitty job of it. False dilemma. I can also conclude that other, more subtle (but equally fraudulent) registrations have been submitted. What evidence is there that the ones identified are the only ones? “The thirteenth stroke of a clock is not only wrong itself, but casts grave doubt upon the accuracy of the preceding twelve.” ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/388 "2008-10-14T15:16:11Z")
> [@RyJae](#): > > (HIJACK FOR A REGISTRATION QUESTION) > > I quickly went over the official website but I couldn’t find the answer. I checked my voter registration and it has me INACTIVE!! WTF I voted in 2006, skipped the primaries due to lack of candidate interest, but how does it make me inactive? And how do I change it back to active? > > (END HIJACK WITH APOLOGIES) This is on [www.votespa.com](http://www.votespa.com)? They’ve got a link called “County Contacts and Web Sites”, where you can probably find contact info for your local Board of Canvassers. Those are the people you’ll need to get in touch with to straighten out registration issues. > [@Bricker](#): > > > [@Kimstu](#): > > > > While it was gracious of you to dial down the venom level on deciding that you had overreacted, I don’t think you can blame anyone for feeling that your original remarks were pretty smeary. > > Yes, they were, and on reflection, I amended them. Which was commendable, as I said before. So maybe you’d like to change your response to **jsgoddess** from “I didn’t smear anything” to something like “I already retracted the original smearish overstatements in my OP, and I still maintain that ACORN and its employees merit some criticism for their actions and that Democratic posters should acknowledge that”? ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/389 "2008-10-14T15:18:43Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > False dilemma. I can also conclude that other, more subtle (but equally fraudulent) registrations have been submitted. What evidence is there that the ones identified are the only ones? What evidence is there that they’re not? Your argument appears to be that they’re bad because they could have done something bad, even though there’s no evidence they did and no clear reason why they might have wanted to. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/390 "2008-10-14T15:19:55Z")
The outstanding questions are: 1. What was ACORN supposed to have done, given that they are required to hand in all registrations they receive? 2. What is the mechanism by which “en masse” fraudulent registrations turn into “en masse” fraudulent votes? 3. Is the current Republican talking point supposed to be “ACORN is trying to commit fraud!” “ACORN hires lazy nogoodniks!” or “ACORN killed my daddy!”? Because it’s getting hard to figure that out. ---
**Author:** ![Kyrie\_Eleison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kyrie_eleison/32/7682_2.png) [@Kyrie\_Eleison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyrie_Eleison)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/391 "2008-10-14T15:20:57Z")
> [@RyJae](#): > > And how do I change it back to active? Call ACORN for help? If you do, I’ve found you get a quicker response if you use the name “Roger Staubach.” Seriously, according to [this voter guide](http://www.thepennsylvaniaprimary.com/voter-guide), Pennsylvania registrations are marked inactive if you fail to respond to mailed address verification request. Also according to that guide, being listed as inactive won’t prevent you from voting, but you may have to sign an affirmation of your current address when you cast your ballot. You might be able to contact the registrar in [you county](http://www.votespa.com/CountyContactsandWebSites/tabid/89/language/en-US/Default.aspx) to straighten things out before November if you like. Regarding the main topic, if only there were some agency charged with the responsibility of determining which proffered registrations were legitimate. Democracy might have been saved, if only we had had the foresight to establish such. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/392 "2008-10-14T15:28:17Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > This is on [www.votespa.com](http://www.votespa.com)? They’ve got a link called “County Contacts and Web Sites”, where you can probably find contact info for your local Board of Canvassers. Those are the people you’ll need to get in touch with to straighten out registration issues. > Which was commendable, as I said before. So maybe you’d like to change your response to **jsgoddess** from “I didn’t smear anything” to something like “I already retracted the original smearish overstatements in my OP, and I still maintain that ACORN and its employees merit some criticism for their actions and that Democratic posters should acknowledge that”? Yes, I should. When I said, “I didn’t smear anything,” I was referring to my current set of claims, as it were. But a much more clear statement would be yours, and I adopt it _in toto_: I already retracted the original smearish overstatements in my OP, and I still maintain that ACORN and its employees merit some criticism for their actions and that Democratic posters should acknowledge that – and, indeed, some have. ---
**Author:** ![Kyrie\_Eleison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kyrie_eleison/32/7682_2.png) [@Kyrie\_Eleison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyrie_Eleison)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/393 "2008-10-14T15:29:47Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > The outstanding questions are: All good questions, but if you’ll permit me, I’d like to add one: 1. What percentage of applications received from voter registration organizations other than ACORN are found not to be legitimate? What percentage of applications directly submitted to the registrar’s office are similarly rejected? I’m open to the suggestion that ACORN could have improved their policies to avoid motivating workers to submit fraudulent applications, but no one has established that this problem is particularly worse at ACORN than in other organizations. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/394 "2008-10-14T15:30:33Z")
> [@DoctorJ](#): > > What evidence is there that they’re not? Your argument appears to be that they’re bad because they could have done something bad, even though there’s no evidence they did and no clear reason why they might have wanted to. The evidence that there are others is inferential, based on the fact that the method of uncovering the phony registrations was simply by finding outrageous fabrications. We can easily reason that others, less obvious, may exist, given what we know of how the phony ones came to be. ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/395 "2008-10-14T15:35:43Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The evidence that there are others is inferential, based on the fact that the method of uncovering the phony registrations was simply by finding outrageous fabrications. We can easily reason that others, less obvious, may exist, given what we know of how the phony ones came to be. One could also infer that there are not less obvious ones because if they were trying to do something shady they would hardly tip their hand by submitting obvious fakes. One could further infer something about you based on this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/396 "2008-10-14T15:40:21Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > False dilemma. I can also conclude that other, more subtle (but equally fraudulent) registrations have been submitted. What evidence is there that the ones identified are the only ones? What evidence indeed. So your argument at this point boils down to either ACORN failing to catch all the voter fraud or ACORN outting themselves on some voter fraud in order to cover up an even larger amount of it, neither of which you have a shread of evidence to support? Does that about sum it up? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/397 "2008-10-14T15:42:40Z")
> [@Kyrie\_Eleison](#): > > All good questions, but if you’ll permit me, I’d like to add one: > > 1. What percentage of applications received from voter registration organizations other than ACORN are found not to be legitimate? What percentage of applications directly submitted to the registrar’s office are similarly rejected? > > I’m open to the suggestion that ACORN could have improved their policies to avoid motivating workers to submit fraudulent applications, but no one has established that this problem is particularly worse at ACORN than in other organizations. That’s an excellent question. One thing that gonzomax has said in this or another ACORN thread is that the workers aren’t necessarily seeing the registrations after they are filled out in the field. If some joker decides on his own to fill it out for Batman, there isn’t anything that ACORN worker could do at that point. Gonzomax, are you here and can you address this? I don’t know where your post was. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/398 "2008-10-14T16:02:22Z")
> [@askeptic](#): > > One could also infer that there are not less obvious ones because if they were trying to do something shady they would hardly tip their hand by submitting obvious fakes. > > One could further infer something about you based on this thread. This reminds me of the position taken by proponents of capital punishment. “We’ve never executed an innocent man!” they proclaim proudly. “Look,” I say to them. “We know of over a hundred innocent men previously on Death Row, where new DNA evidence has conclusively shown their innocence. Doesn’t it make sense to imagine that at least one other such person might have been erroneously convicted but didn’t have DNA evidence to rely on?” “There’s no proof of that. The system works just fine; the innocent were found and their convictions overturned. Everyone left is guilty.” “Unless,” I reply, “Some future evidence comes to light, at which point the prisoner will be released and you will again trumpet that the system works.” ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/399 "2008-10-14T16:03:52Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Oh, OK! So, in that thread you mean it, but this one, yer just kidding around? Hey, how about trying admitting that you made a mistake? You said some things that were patently false. I pointed that out and why. There are two different threads. I responded in this one to a specific thread responded back, etc. You know, the way its supposed to work. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/400 "2008-10-14T16:07:53Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I don’t accept this claim as fact. I don’t accept your claim of fraud. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984.md?page=21)