# ACORN submits fraudulent voter registrations en masse **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 8, 2008, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984 "2008-10-08T13:55:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/401 "2008-10-14T16:08:27Z")
> [@Enderw24](#): > > What evidence indeed. So your argument at this point boils down to either ACORN failing to catch all the voter fraud or ACORN outting themselves on some voter fraud in order to cover up an even larger amount of it, neither of which you have a shread of evidence to support? Does that about sum it up? “A shred?” Are you seriously contending that some ACORN workers decided to game the system by writing down phony names, and now each and every instance of that has been uncovered? Seriously? The “shred” of evidence I’m arguing here is a virtual certainty. Now, I grant you that while it’s overwhelmingly certain there’s at least one phony registration still unfound, it’s equally certain that of the 11,000 submitted, the number of fakes won’t rise to 10,000. So we can imagine a balance scale, swinging slowly from 1 to 10,000, while the corresponding needle swings from “Virtually certain” to “virtually impossible.” But it seems to me you want to adopt the position that even though we’ve seen fake registrations submitted, each and every registration left is good as gold unless it’s shown to be phony. That’s fine for considering any individual registration, but if we consider the whole group, it’s absurd. Unless, by chance, you favor the death penalty… then I can see how you might like that method of analysis. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/402 "2008-10-14T16:10:20Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I don’t accept your claim of fraud. That’s obvious. But on your side, we have a press release; on mine, an affidavit. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/403 "2008-10-14T16:15:47Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But on your side, we have a press release; on mine, an affidavit. Yes, an affadvit that affirms that ACORN complied with the law and turned in all the cards that were submitted. Where is the fraud? Your argument is an empty taunt. ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/404 "2008-10-14T16:17:18Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > That’s obvious. But on your side, we have a press release; on mine, an affidavit. Shame on you Bricker. As a former defense attorney if you never successfully challenged a search warrant affidavit you must not have been very good. As has been pointed out an affidavit in support of a search warrant is not likely to include evidence that vitiates probable cause. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/405 "2008-10-14T16:17:35Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > “A shred?” > > Are you seriously contending that some ACORN workers decided to game the system by writing down phony names, and now each and every instance of that has been uncovered? Seriously? > > The “shred” of evidence I’m arguing here is a virtual certainty. Now, I grant you that while it’s overwhelmingly certain there’s at least one phony registration still unfound, it’s equally certain that of the 11,000 submitted, the number of fakes won’t rise to 10,000. So we can imagine a balance scale, swinging slowly from 1 to 10,000, while the corresponding needle swings from “Virtually certain” to “virtually impossible.” > > But it seems to me you want to adopt the position that even though we’ve seen fake registrations submitted, each and every registration left is good as gold unless it’s shown to be phony. > > That’s fine for considering any individual registration, but if we consider the whole group, it’s absurd. > > Unless, by chance, you favor the death penalty… then I can see how you might like that method of analysis. So are you okay with the idea that we caught half of them? At what level is it trivial? Since after all, if all of the registrations were fake, none of them could be used to vote. Are you simply keeping up the ire so as to not look foolish for the OP? Because this is making it worse, imho. A couple of lowlifes cheated at work. I don’t know why this is a news item and I don’t understand why you’re outraged. It seems a little silly to still claim there is something wrong when the system worked. Are you \*looking \*for something to be upset about? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/406 "2008-10-14T16:20:38Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > That’s obvious. But on your side, we have a press release; on mine, an affidavit. Please identify the material facts on which the two documents are not in accord. Take your time. ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/407 "2008-10-14T16:22:08Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Are you \*looking \*for something to be upset about? He is trying the “Hey look at this shiny thing over here” tactic that has worked so well for republicans in the past. He is just behind the times. He obviously didn’t get the memo “IT"S THE ECONOMY,STUPID!”. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/408 "2008-10-14T16:36:39Z")
They showed a guy on TV a little while ago who said he made 13 fraudulent voters applications. He thought he broke no laws. If he gave them to me .I gotta turn them in, flagged as possibly fraudulent. But I have to turn them in by law. Drudge has a headline today saying ACORN turned in a form for Mickey Mouse. I would have had to do the same. I imagine if I decided it was fraudulent and took it upon myself to shit can it ,I could have been sued by him. We all hear about people who changed their names to something we thought was stupid. It happens. But the real point is these people do not exist and will not vote. It is not voting fraud until someone votes . The registration will be checked. If found legitimate then he will be sent a voters card. If not, it ends there. This thread is all smoke and mirrors. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/409 "2008-10-14T16:40:08Z")
> [@askeptic](#): > > Shame on you Bricker. As a former defense attorney if you never successfully challenged a search warrant affidavit you must not have been very good. As has been pointed out an affidavit in support of a search warrant is not likely to include evidence that vitiates probable cause. Sometimes that’s true, yes. But this warrant included information about ACORN’s internal check systems, how they assign forms assigned to canvassers serial numbers and have workers sign-off on each form, and follow up with listed voters by phone to verify they had taken part in the registration drive. It also mentions their general cooperation and meetings with state officials concerning bad form submissions, so it’s unclear to me why the affiant might have chosen to leave out that key piece of information and expose himself to the very charge of bad faith now being leveled. This is really amazing. An organization is shown to have submitted many forms containing phony voter registration information, and the attitude here is, “I’m not going to admit to a thing unless it’s proved beyond a shadow of a doubt.” That’s a very appropriate line for criminal defense. But for this discussion, is it really the fair approach? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/410 "2008-10-14T16:41:27Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > They showed a guy on TV a little while ago who said he made 13 fraudulent voters applications. He thought he broke no laws. If he gave them to me .I gotta turn them in, flagged as possibly fraudulent. But I have to turn them in by law. Drudge has a headline today saying ACORN turned in a form for Mickey Mouse. I would have had to do the same. I imagine if I decided it was fraudulent and took it upon myself to shit can it ,I could have been sued by him. We all hear about people who changed their names to something we thought was stupid. It happens. Heaven forfend we deny the right to vote to Mickey Mouse, and disrespect the generations of mice that died to give us that right, eh? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/411 "2008-10-14T16:45:06Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > So are you okay with the idea that we caught half of them? At what level is it trivial? Since after all, if all of the registrations were fake, none of them could be used to vote. Sure, I’m OK that we caught half of them. It’s not trivial at its current level. And none of them could be used to vote? Really? Well, that was kinda the point of this thread. If we had a voter ID system in place, then you’d be right. But seriously – without a voter ID system, explain exactly the process that stops someone from going to one precinct, saying, “My name is Terrell Owens. Yeah, like the football player,” and casting a vote – and then duplicating that process at another precinct. > [@](#): > > A couple of lowlifes cheated at work. I don’t know why this is a news item and I don’t understand why you’re outraged. It seems a little silly to still claim there is something wrong when the system worked. Are you \*looking \*for something to be upset about? A couple of lowlifes cheated at work in a way that proves the value of having a voter ID system. ---
**Author:** ![stolichnaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bcef8e/32.png) [@stolichnaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stolichnaya)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/412 "2008-10-14T16:50:35Z")
Well, it proves **a** potential value of having a voter ID system. As I’m sure you’d agree, a voter ID system should be considered in light of all of its costs and benefits, including but not limited to people trying to vote as Mickey Mouse, and only if such abuse is significant. I find it interesting that in the last few elections there has been an upswing in the number of attorneys and layperson volunteers at polls examining individual voters with the power to challenge individual votes, and we have not seen any evidence of people attempting to vote with apparently false names. Lots of changed addresses, mixed up unregistered people, but no stories of individuals attempting to cast ballots based on false names. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/413 "2008-10-14T16:53:14Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > An organization is shown to have submitted many forms containing phony voter registration information… As required by law. Where is the fraud? You have yet to present any evidence that they engaged in fraud. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/414 "2008-10-14T16:53:30Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > “A shred?” > > Are you seriously contending that some ACORN workers decided to game the system by writing down phony names, and now each and every instance of that has been uncovered? Seriously? > . Did I state that every instance had been found? No. I’m willing to cast reasonable doubt on the situation. I’m willing to state that this incident requires further investigation. I don’t know the full extent of this but I’m also not willing to blame ACORN without even one iota of concrete proof that they’ve done anything but comply with the law. And no, you haven’t provided that yet. Let me take you back to the “Notorious Hacker Caught!” thread. Here’s one of your posts in it: > [@](#): > > What I need is a clear and unambiguous statement that the e-mails were state business and not personal. It’s not enough to say, “Hey, these were from her aides,” or even “These were from the Lt. Governor,” because that alone doesn’t mean squat. > > The response above is the first description that gets close, and even then… “several bearing ‘DPS’” means nothing; and depending on the contents of the letter to Schwarzenegger, that too may mean nothing. > > In other words, just saying who they are from, or to, is irrelevant and useless. > > And then… “a discussion of nominations to the state court of appeals” with who? Her husband? Her friend from high school? Then it’s not business. What did it say? “Judge Jones – you know, the one that’s up for nomination? You know he watches the Kardashians show too, right?” Then it’s not business. > > What you need to be able to say is that there’s an e-mail in the account that BOTH (a) meaningfully discussed official business, and (b) was written to an legitimate government official about that business. > > So far, you’ve danced around that with vague words that strongly hint at guilt, but don’t actually come out and say it. Usually, when I see weasel words like that, I think that someone’s preparing a future defense of, “Well, technically, I didn’t actually accuse her of X…” > > So, AGAIN: was there official business e-mail in the account? Let me summarize this: in THAT thread you were demanding absolute proof of wrongdoing before conceding that further investigation is necessary. In THIS thread you’re using inferences and hypothesises to conclude with absolute certainty that something must have occured. I guess you can jokingly state that you’re consistent in that you really don’t like followup investigations. But when we examine your opinions seriously, we find they’re completely at odds with each other. Why the differences in your opinion? Why the two standards of proof for these two situations? ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/415 "2008-10-14T16:53:48Z")
[In Ohio, they caught a guy who registered to vote several times and cast a bogus ballot.](http://www.nypost.com/seven/10142008/news/politics/bogus_voter_booted_amid_probe_of_acorn_133540.htm) In Indiana, the first 2100 of 5000 voter registrations submitted by ACORN were found to be [fraudulent](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_f4FMwitLak). I’m sorry, but this scares the bejesus out of me. ACORN has too many things wrong in too many places, but Og forbid you call them on it, because then you’re just trying to disenfranchise the poor. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/416 "2008-10-14T16:56:19Z")
> [@ivylass](#): > > In Indiana, the first 2100 of 5000 voter registrations submitted by ACORN were found to be [fraudulent](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_f4FMwitLak). If someone fills a out a card with fraudulent information, ACORN is required by law to turn it in. Where is the fraud? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/417 "2008-10-14T16:59:48Z")
> [@Enderw24](#): > > Let me summarize this: in THAT thread you were demanding absolute proof of wrongdoing before conceding that further investigation is necessary. > In THIS thread you’re using inferences and hypothesises to conclude with absolute certainty that something must have occured. > > I guess you can jokingly state that you’re consistent in that you really don’t like followup investigations. But when we examine your opinions seriously, we find they’re completely at odds with each other. Why the differences in your opinion? Why the two standards of proof for these two situations? In _neither_ thread did I demand absolute proof. In _both_ I used the exact same standard: there must be a _specific_ allegation of wrongdoing. Here, in the ACORN case, there has been. There’s no question that specific illegal acts have been alleged. In the Gov-hacker thread, at first, there were no specific illegal acts alleged. The moment someone made a specific allegation and showed the evidence suggesting it (and didn’t prove it, by the way – PROOF would have included a reasonable showing that those were actuall from or to the governor as opposed to phonied up) I agreed. Same exact thing here. Start with a specific allegation of a criminal act. ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/418 "2008-10-14T17:06:51Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > If someone fills a out a card with fraudulent information, ACORN is required by law to turn it in. Where is the fraud? Are there other community organizing groups out there that are having such an issue getting valid voter registration forms turned in? I find ACORN’s stance on this issue puzzling. Why aren’t they horrified at the number of invalid registrations and taking steps to correct the problem? They’ve been claiming since 2002 that they were going to clean house. We’re still waiting. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/419 "2008-10-14T17:15:17Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Well, that was kinda the point of this thread. If we had a voter ID system in place, then you’d be right. But seriously – without a voter ID system, explain exactly the process that stops someone from going to one precinct, saying, “My name is Terrell Owens. Yeah, like the football player,” and casting a vote – and then duplicating that process at another precinct. Well, in the State of Ohio, before you vote for the first time, you must present your voter registration card that had been mailed to you following your registration. Providing a phony address means that the card will not be mailed to you. (If it is mailed to your friend, you are still going to have a problem showing a driver’s license with a totally different address and you almost have to vote in multiple precincts to avoid being recognized on your second or third trip to the same poll.) So when you show up at the precinct claiming to be M. Mouse, lacking a Voter ID and lacking any other evidence that you live in the precinct, then you are going to be turned away. Even if there had been an easy way to accomplish this in the days when the polls were run by political nmachines accepting votes from Shady Rest Cemetary, in today’s world with challengers located at every poll, it seems a stretch to believe that such fraud would be likely or that, if attempted, it would be successful. (Is there not a state AG who recently spent six years and several hundreds of thousands of dollars to discover four entire cases of voter fraud?) I am not opposed to a voter ID system, but the logistics required to actually affect an election by successfully getting hundreds of voters to go from ballot box to ballot box and getting to vote without even the local ID now required goes beyond improbable. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/420 "2008-10-14T17:16:31Z")
> [@ivylass](#): > > …I’m sorry, but this scares the bejesus out of me… Don’t be sorry. ACORN is under orders from Commissar Soros to peform preliminary reconnaisance, under the guise of “voter registration”, so that we might identify pockets of potential resistance for when we swoop down to take all your guns, and force Eagle Scouts into gay marriages. Besides, ACORN is relatively benign. That undisclosed alliance between Habitat for Humanity and the Amish Comintern, now _there’s_ Darkness Manifest! (Don’t worry, I’ve put in a good word for you. Six weeks at the Jane Fonda Re-Education and Aerobics Camp, tops!..) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984.md?page=22)