# ACORN submits fraudulent voter registrations en masse **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 8, 2008, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984 "2008-10-08T13:55:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![descamisado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@descamisado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/descamisado)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/421 "2008-10-14T17:19:52Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > They bring a citizen’s right to vote to the polls. I consider that valuable. Mileage appears to vary. And as I’ve argued upthread, what’s wrong with bringing the means to vote to the people in light of abysmal registration/voting rates, especially those who may not even ever have need for any of those agencies **RyJae** listed? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/422 "2008-10-14T17:20:18Z")
> [@ivylass](#): > > Why aren’t they horrified at the number of invalid registrations and taking steps to correct the problem? Maybe the 1001st time I ask this question someone will give an answer. \* What would you have them do?\* Be specific. ---
**Author:** ![stolichnaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bcef8e/32.png) [@stolichnaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stolichnaya)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/423 "2008-10-14T17:26:17Z")
Thanks for at least one example of someone trying to vote falsely. It should be easy enough to determine if other voter registration efforts have this same issue. That would decrease the demonization of ACORN per se, but the issue of false registrations is still an itneresting one. To me, the Occam’s razor view of this is, why would they register such obviously false names if their intent was to create opportunities for false votes? You’d think that we could be a little more sophicsticated. In fact, all you’d need to do is pick a random first name and a random last name from the valid rolls and combine them. This Terrell Owens nonsense seems a bridge too far if your intent is to muddy the process, let alone if your intent is to have people actually cast false votes. If ACORN is perpetrating voter fraud, they are spectacularly incompetent at it. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/424 "2008-10-14T17:26:43Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I am not opposed to a voter ID system, but the logistics required to actually affect an election by successfully getting hundreds of voters to go from ballot box to ballot box and getting to vote without even the local ID now required goes beyond improbable. The problem is that if it happens, it will be too late to fix the issue. In Florida in 2000, the state was decided by roughly 500 votes – and as Florida went, so went the national election. In my view, it’s VERY conceivable to picture 500 voters in Florida casting two, three, or even four ballots in a day. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/425 "2008-10-14T17:31:35Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > So when you show up at the precinct claiming to be M. Mouse, lacking a Voter ID and lacking any other evidence that you live in the precinct, then you are going to be turned away. Ah HAH! I always knew your [last name](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Peloso) 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/426 "2008-10-14T17:33:03Z")
> [@stolichnaya](#): > > To me, the Occam’s razor view of this is, why would they register such obviously false names if their intent was to create opportunities for false votes? You’d think that we could be a little more sophicsticated. In fact, all you’d need to do is pick a random first name and a random last name from the valid rolls and combine them. This Terrell Owens nonsense seems a bridge too far if your intent is to muddy the process, let alone if your intent is to have people actually cast false votes. Unless their plan is to gum up the system so bad that the “real” fake registrations slip through. There’s only so many people and so much time to investigate all the registrations. I know, I know, tin foil hat territory, but really…are the ACORN higher-ups that stupid? Registering Mickey Mouse to vote and having fraud allegations in multipe states isn’t going to help your credibility as to your cause, which on the face, is quite admirable. ---
**Author:** ![stolichnaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bcef8e/32.png) [@stolichnaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stolichnaya)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/427 "2008-10-14T17:41:34Z")
And then, as if their plan was not devious enough- they reported the false names to the authorities! ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/428 "2008-10-14T17:42:23Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Maybe the 1001st time I ask this question someone will give an answer. > \* > What would you have them do?\* Be specific. [ul] [li]Submit all registrations within one week of collecting them[/li][li]Do not submit any registrations after the cut-off for a given election; agree not to challenge the rejection of late-submitted registrations [/li][li]Have a single, salaried, quality control “responsible organizer” in each office who is ultimately responsible for the quality control process[/li][li]Notify the county elections officials immediately upon the discovery of any systemic problem with ACORN’s quality control process[/li][li]Notify the county elections officials immediately if any person is fired for fraud or for suspicious registrations submissions[/li][li]Agree that all quality control officers receive training from the national office on specific quality steps needed[/li][li]Prepare a training video to show to all canvassers to show proper steps to register a voter[/li][li]Inform all canvassers of the criminal and civil penalties for fraud, and have each sign a document saying they understand the responsibilites and the penalities[/li][li]Maintain a list of canvassers, with each canvasser’s initials to be placed legibly and distinguishably on each card he obtains[/li][li]Certify under penalty of perjury that all registrations in a particular batch were received from the canvassers whose name or initials appears on the cards[/li][li]Segregate any “suspect” registrations, and submit under separate cover with summary showing reasons they are considered suspect[/li][li]Permit the county or state to review, on demand, the quality control procedures outlined here[/li][li]Agree that submission of fraudulent registrations that have not been subject to the quality control process constitutes criminal liability on the part of the organization[/li][/ul] ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/429 "2008-10-14T18:24:39Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Agree that submission of fraudulent registrations that have not been subject to the quality control process constitutes criminal liability on the part of the organization Does that go for individuals as well? In any case, most of that list looks fine to me, but it doesn’t really address the entire claim of the thread which is that “ACORN submits fraudulent voter registrations en masse.” I’ve seen no demonstration that they _aren’t already_ doing (all of? most of?) the things on your list. How are you so certain they aren’t doing these things? What in your list would make Republicans stop screaming that ACORN was submitting false registrations? What if they aren’t doing all of the things on your list so they start doing all of the things on your list and the number of false registrations doesn’t go down? At that point would you say that they have done all they can, or would you redouble your efforts to discredit them? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/430 "2008-10-14T18:32:58Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Does that go for individuals as well? > > In any case, most of that list looks fine to me, but it doesn’t really address the entire claim of the thread which is that “ACORN submits fraudulent voter registrations en masse.” My claim in the thread is: _Because ACORN has shown how easy it is to submit fraudulent voter registrations, we can conclude the voter ID laws are a good idea._ > [@](#): > > I’ve seen no demonstration that they _aren’t already_ doing (all of? most of?) the things on your list. How are you so certain they aren’t doing these things? Because the list derives from a consent decree enforced against another ACORN office in a different state, and because AORN refused to make these changes until forced to by credible threat of prosecution. > [@](#): > > What in your list would make Republicans stop screaming that ACORN was submitting false registrations? The quality control procedures – making one person responsible, making canvassers initial all the cards they get, serializing the cards – you know, tracking. > [@](#): > > What if they aren’t doing all of the things on your list so they start doing all of the things on your list and the number of false registrations doesn’t go down? At that point would you say that they have done all they can, or would you redouble your efforts to discredit them? It’s very difficult to imagine how not following those procedures would not result in a decrease in false registrations. In any event, if they followed those procedures, I’d certainly say they were doing all they reasonably could. ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/431 "2008-10-14T18:39:16Z")
> [@](#): > > I know, I know, tin foil hat territory, but really…are the ACORN higher-ups that stupid? Registering Mickey Mouse to vote and having fraud allegations in multipe states isn’t going to help your credibility as to your cause, which on the face, is quite admirable. They can’t help it if some jackass decides to fill out a card as Mickey Mouse. They have to take the application, and they have to turn it in. They can flag it as suspicious, but that’s all. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/432 "2008-10-14T18:44:17Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The quality control procedures – making one person responsible, making canvassers initial all the cards they get, serializing the cards – you know, tracking. (Is this one of those magic things, like McCain saying he knows how to fix Social Security by “reaching across the aisle” and mystically invoking Reagan and Tip O’Neill?) How does “tracking” reduce the number of false registrations? ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/433 "2008-10-14T18:46:43Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > My claim in the thread is: _Because ACORN has shown how easy it is to submit fraudulent voter registrations, we can conclude the voter ID laws are a good idea._ Yep. And there it is folks, along with: > [@Bricker](#): > > A couple of lowlifes cheated at work in a way that proves the value of having a voter ID system. I get it now. We’ve been duped by another misdirection thread. This has nothing to do with the current right wing kerfuffle over ACORN, it’s one of those law professor-envy Socratic gimmicks where you ask one question but are really hoping to get at another. This whole thing is groundless smoke and mirrors. Say it with me … they are bound by law to turn in _ **ALL** _ registration cards. You want to laugh at their management practices? Go ahead. You think you can devise a system where people go out in large numbers to register people to vote that won’t result in some percentage of fake returns? Is this the secret kept in the same vault as McCain’s “Plan to Capture Osama” and “Plan to fix Social Security”? What’s with all the tinfoil flying around? Despite ACORN’s ostensible mission to register voters (partisan or otherwise), their main mission is to gum up the works of county registrars so _no one_ can vote? As I said earlier, it sounds like some small number of people committed fraud _on ACORN_ (by getting paid to turn in fake registrations), but where in the name of Reynold’s Wrap is the credible suggestion that there is some harm/attempt to defraud the \*public \*at large? On Election Day, is ACORN going to tap into their secret database of fake names, then redouble its efforts to round up people to pretend to be M. Mouse? Won’t most of their resources be going into getting legitimate voters to the polls? Is it more pointing at a non-Republican organization in an attempt to distract from the general weakness of the candidate? No. None of the above. We’ve been had as much as Acorn was by someone turning in an M. Mouse registration card. Other than hiding the ball by pretending to be about one thing when it’s really “Gotcha Ya” something else, this thread makes no sense. No wonder so many people were confused why their questions went unanswered – they were responding to a fraudulent OP. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/434 "2008-10-14T18:52:16Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > (Is this one of those magic things, like McCain saying he knows how to fix Social Security by “reaching across the aisle” and mystically invoking Reagan and Tip O’Neill?) > > How does “tracking” reduce the number of false registrations? Are you kidding me?? What’s the motive for Charlie Canvasser to fake a sheet of names? He gets paid, and is long gone by the time the reprecussions come back to haunt him. A tracking system like the one I describe above ties the canvassers to suspicious forms immediately. The requirement to submit within a week means that the whole process happens quickly – the canvasser cannot continue work cheating; they are exposed and fired quickly. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/435 "2008-10-14T18:53:46Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > No wonder so many people were confused why their questions went unanswered – they were responding to a fraudulent OP. I acknowledge that the initial post was misdirected. Of course, I did that quite some time ago. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/436 "2008-10-14T19:06:17Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > What’s the motive for Charlie Canvasser to fake a sheet of names? He gets paid, and is long gone by the time the reprecussions come back to haunt him. Poofey smoke. So what. Really, so what? So in the end, when ACORN does their annual report, they ended up paying (between salary and processing) more per valid registered name then they otherwise would have. So what? Where’s the connection between this and voter ID in general? Poofey pink smoke and a dirty, chipped mirror. That someone is too lazy to get find real voters to register implies that they are too lazy to follow up with a fake vote. Poofey gray smoke in a dingy subway restroom and a puddle of mysterious ooze on the floor that is a poor substitute for a mirror. So you’d push liability off from the Registrar and, in the same thread where you’ve insinuated grand kabbalistic conspiracies to have Ms. Mouse and Pluto registerd as well, you’d trust ACORN enough to take over that Registrar’s burden. So you’d have them divert resources from gathering names to quality control so that people who won’t actually be showing up to try and vote anyway really \*really \*can’t. Cigarette smoke coughed out of the phlegmetic lungs of the just deceased and the corpse’s glassy eyes reflecting the emptiness of the thread. Not even a threadbare connection to how voter registration practices have anything to do with voter fraud or voter ID. Smoke and mirrors. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/437 "2008-10-14T19:15:23Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > A tracking system like the one I describe above ties the canvassers to suspicious forms immediately. The requirement to submit within a week means that the whole process happens quickly – the canvasser cannot continue work cheating; they are exposed and fired quickly. And every single form they handed in still gets submitted. Every single one. _Tracking doesn’t prevent bad forms from being submitted._ You want regulations passed so that you feel better without having any evidence that they are needed or useful. Republicanism changes by the _minute_ around here. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/438 "2008-10-14T19:21:24Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > And every single form they handed in still gets submitted. Every single one. _Tracking doesn’t prevent bad forms from being submitted._ > > You want regulations passed so that you feel better without having any evidence that they are needed or useful. Republicanism changes by the _minute_ around here. What’s that out there in the fog? It looks like someone filling out a fake registration form, then folding it/sealing it so that the canvasser can’t tell which party the registree has chosen to affiliate with (as has been noted upthread). Seems like that ACORN employee (heck, let’s make this fun and call them a volunteer) is going to the pokey for participating in the fraud. ---
**Author:** ![Baldwin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baldwin/32/7264_2.png) [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/439 "2008-10-14T19:56:46Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Heaven forfend we deny the right to vote to Mickey Mouse, and disrespect the generations of mice that died to give us that right, eh? Heaven forfend anybody gets to decide to throw away somebody’s voter registration without investigation because he merely suspects the name is fake. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/440 "2008-10-14T20:07:36Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > So you’d push liability off from the Registrar and, in the same thread where you’ve insinuated grand kabbalistic conspiracies to have Ms. Mouse and Pluto registerd as well, you’d trust ACORN enough to take over that Registrar’s burden. So you’d have them divert resources from gathering names to quality control so that people who won’t actually be showing up to try and vote anyway really \*really \*can’t. Not at all. I’d hold them responsible – criminally – for failing to follow their own quality control procedures. That’s an excellent incentive to follow them. Now, if they follow them, then they cannot submit unflagged fake voters with ease, which means they can quickly identify and fire the canvassers that submitted them – which in turn makes it less likely that the canvasser will risk it, since now, instead of months going by, he’s discovered and fired almost instantly. And voter ID requirements remove any temptation the virtuous icons of ACORN might have to submit fake names on purpose. Everything works as intended. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984.md?page=23)