# ACORN submits fraudulent voter registrations en masse **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 8, 2008, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984 "2008-10-08T13:55:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 29
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2008, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/561 "2008-10-21T13:12:59Z")
> [@HookerChemical](#): > > Here’s why voter registration organizations s shouldn’t be allowed to throw out suspicous registrations: > > [http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/10/right-wing\_pundit\_on\_voter\_fra.php](http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/10/right-wing_pundit_on_voter_fra.php) > > It turns out there really is a voter named Duran Duran. No voter registration org has or should have the resources to confirm that information. That’s my new favorite. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2008, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/562 "2008-10-21T14:15:05Z")
> [@5-4-Fighting](#): > > Let me see if I understand this position and your advocacy of it. > > When Ken Blackwell during the 2004 election, as Secretary of State of Ohio (also co-chair of the Ohio Committee to re-elect George W. Bush), not only unilaterally threw out provisional ballots which were cast because of the voter being in the wrong precinct,\* but also ordered poll workers not to even provide provisional ballots to voters who they were not satisfied about where they lived,\*\* then who has the power and far-reaching imprimatur to vigorously advocate “following the rules” for the other side? Wow, if only I had made clear that vigorous advocacy must be within the bounds of the law. I could have said, for example, “ **As long as both sides follow the law** , then there’s no room for complaining.” But by failing to include that sentence, I see I’ve left room for confusion. So let me clarify: throwing out cast provisional ballots because the voter was in the wrong precinct: legal. And correct. Voters living in Ward 7, let’s say, have no right to vote for my Ward 6 council seat. Ordering poll workers not to even provide provisional ballots: NOT legal. And, therefore, incorrect, and something I don’t support. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2008, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/563 "2008-10-21T14:22:56Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Wow, if only I had made clear that vigorous advocacy must be within the bounds of the law. I could have said, for example, “ **As long as both sides follow the law** , then there’s no room for complaining.” But by failing to include that sentence, I see I’ve left room for confusion. Yeah, well, one side has made it clear that they don’t respect the rule of law, only the rule of whatever gets them more power. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2008, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/564 "2008-10-21T14:46:11Z")
[Relevant article.](http://www.thenation.com/blogs/edcut/374010) > [@](#): > > As we head into the final stretch of the election season, alarming reports of dysfunctional voter registration, purges of the rolls, and possible voter suppression are surfacing weekly, if not daily. The National Campaign for Fair Elections’ hotline (866.OUR.VOTE / 866.687.8683) is already receiving roughly a thousand calls a day; while the majority of these are requests for information, some concern problems with registration. The New York Times reports that tens of thousands of voters may have been illegally purged from the rolls in swing states. Other news sources speculate there are 600,000 voters at risk of disenfranchisement in Ohio alone. What goes unreported upon amid all this turmoil is how effective the response has been, and what can still be done. > > \ > > The real danger is that the process itself is flawed. “We have an election system that’s exquisitely designed for low rates of participation,” says Tova Wang, Vice President of Research for Common Cause. “We’re expecting increased turnout and we have a system that’s not designed to handle it.” While these problems are endemic throughout our fractured electoral system, three states–Virginia, Florida, and Ohio–present both the challenges we face and the measures we might take to solve them. All three are closely contested, and an Obama victory will require every one. > > \ > > • Florida > In the words of more than one election reform advocate: ‘Florida is the new Florida.’ The state that was decided by 537 votes in 2000 is once again a crucial battleground, with recent polls giving Obama no more than a 5 point lead. > > “Florida has this pride in not learning the lessons of the last election,” declares Jonah Goldman, director of the National Campaign for Fair Elections. As opposed to Virginia, Florida simply lacks a standard for the allocation of voting machines. Furthermore, any registered voter (or poll watcher) of a county can challenge the right of anyone from that county to vote, a common standard among swing states that Common Cause’s Wang declares “is not very effective at preventing the abusive use of caging and challenges.” And like Georgia and Indiana, Florida also has a strict voter ID law. > > But the most severe threat to the franchise in Florida is the Voter Registration Verification Law, better known as the ‘No Match, No Vote’ standard. The Help America Vote Act (HAVA) mandated that states establish a statewide voter registration database, and then compare that data to state driver’s license databases as well as the Social Security Administration’s database. Florida law dictates that if a voter’s registration fails to exactly match those other records, that voter must provide proof of their identity to their local board of elections. If they fail to do so before the election, they will have to vote by provisional ballot (and if they want their ballot to be counted, they’ll still need to provide the board with proof of their identity within 48 hours). Although Florida’s law is, in the words of Tova Wang, “uniquely harsh,” Missouri, New Mexico, and Ohio–also battleground states where the election will be won or lost–as well as Georgia all have vague matching standards that could disenfranchise voters. > > “Database matching is an inherently flawed process that is too imperfect to allow citizens’ right to vote to depend on a successful match,” says Adam Skaggs, Counsel at the Brennan Center for Justice at NYU, which waged a year long legal battle with the state over the law. After the NAACP and the Brennan Center failed to overturn the law in the courts, the Florida Secretary of State declared that as of September 8th, it would be ‘no match, no vote’ for all newly registered voters. Of the more than 375,000 voters who registered in Florida after that date, Skaggs estimates that 15 percent of them (roughly 56,000 voters) initially failed to match. By last Thursday, the Florida Department of State reported that almost 9000 voters had still failed to match. More than half of them are black and Hispanic; more than half are 30 years old or younger; and more than half are Democrats. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2008, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/565 "2008-10-21T16:19:36Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#): > > Yeah, well, one side has made it clear that they don’t respect the rule of law, only the rule of whatever gets them more power. Yes, that’s unfortunately true, but we shouldn’t penalize the entire side for the actions of a corrupt few. The Democrats deserve better treatment than that. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2008, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/566 "2008-10-21T16:22:40Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [Relevant article.](http://www.thenation.com/blogs/edcut/374010) > [@](#): > > After the NAACP and the Brennan Center failed to overturn the law in the courts, the Florida Secretary of State declared that as of September 8th, it would be ‘no match, no vote’ for all newly registered voters. BWAHAHAHA!! “After the law was challenged and upheld, the Florida Secretary of State declared that the law would be followed.” Oh, the horror. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2008, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/567 "2008-10-21T16:26:15Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > BWAHAHAHA!! > > “After the law was challenged and upheld, the Florida Secretary of State declared that the law would be followed.” > > Oh, the horror. :rolleyes: **Bricker,** sometimes I think your political world-view is as far removed from reality – as far the **reverse** of reality – as [Hugh Hewitt’s.](http://www.amazon.com/Its-Close-They-Cant-Cheat/dp/0785263195) Anyway, I put the Florida thing in a separate [Pit thread.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=488875) ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2008, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/568 "2008-10-21T16:29:17Z")
Repub judge what do you expect. Florida loves to cut out voters. They are very good at it. The Harris legacy is alive and well. BWAHBWAH my ass. People are having their right to vote taken away. The bedrock right on which everything else is mounted on, is ignored for political reasons again. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2008, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/569 "2008-10-21T16:45:41Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Repub judge what do you expect. Florida loves to cut out voters. They are very good at it. The Harris legacy is alive and well. BWAHBWAH my ass. People are having their right to vote taken away. The bedrock right on which everything else is mounted on, is ignored for political reasons again. Absurd. If you don’t live in a given voting district, you have no “right” to vote there. And was it, in fact, Republican judges who made these rulings? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2008, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/570 "2008-10-21T16:52:01Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > OK, I agree. I am sure they are focusing on areas that they believe will favor them, in much the same way that a football coach will vigorously argue to the referees that the opposing receiver stepped out of bounds, but not say a word if his own player’s foot was close to the line. Except to extend the analogy the people we are worried about is the Referees, not the other side’s coach. If you knew the Refs were on the payroll for the Chicago Bears and they had bets on the Bears to win would you be comfortable with your team playing the Bears? In the cases of Ohio and Florida the people responsible for overseeing a “fair” election were in the bag for one side. Sounds like setting the fox to watch the hen house to me. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2008, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/571 "2008-10-21T16:53:14Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Except to extend the analogy the people we are worried about is the Referees, not the other side’s coach. > > If you knew the Refs were on the payroll for the Chicago Bears and they had bets on the Bears to win would you be comfortable with your team playing the Bears? > > In the cases of Ohio and Florida the people responsible for overseeing a “fair” election were in the bag for one side. > > Sounds like setting the fox to watch the hen house to me. I don’t see a way to avoid that, since the Secretary of State will either be an elected official, or be appointed by an elected official. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2008, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/572 "2008-10-21T17:10:46Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Repub judge what do you expect. Florida loves to cut out voters. They are very good at it. The Harris legacy is alive and well. BWAHBWAH my ass. People are having their right to vote taken away. The bedrock right on which everything else is mounted on, is ignored for political reasons again. Er, what? Can I have that in English? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2008, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/573 "2008-10-21T20:53:40Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Repub judge what do you expect. Florida loves to cut out voters. They are very good at it. The Harris legacy is alive and well. BWAHBWAH my ass. People are having their right to vote taken away. The bedrock right on which everything else is mounted on, is ignored for political reasons again. **Gonzomax** : the judge who ruled in this case was Stephen Mickle. He’s a Democrat. Why did you say he was a Republican, when that wasn’t true? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2008, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/574 "2008-10-21T21:49:20Z")
Why do you keep pretending that “voter fraud” is a Big Hairy Ass Deal, when you know it isn’t? And if you have proof otherwise, why won’t you present it? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/575 "2008-10-22T00:39:56Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Why do you keep pretending that “voter fraud” is a Big Hairy Ass Deal, when you know it isn’t? Surely of the two of us, I’m in a better postion to say what I “know.” YOu may certainly claim I’m wrong, or mistaken, but you have no grounds to say I’m claiming something that I know isn’t true. > [@](#): > > And if you have proof otherwise, why won’t you present it? I don’t believe that you’re willing to accept the same inferences I am from the available facts. My claim is that voter ID laws are a good idea. I would think locks on front doors are a good idea, even if my house has never once been burglarized – because I can reason my way through the process of seeing the threat and countering it before I have to fill out insurance forms listing the value of all my missing stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/576 "2008-10-22T00:50:31Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > My claim is that voter ID laws are a good idea. I would think locks on front doors are a good idea, even if my house has never once been burglarized – because I can reason my way through the process of seeing the threat and countering it before I have to fill out insurance forms listing the value of all my missing stuff. See, **Bricker** , here’s the thing: there’s lots of evidence that people are being improperly removed from the rolls of registered voters, and in a biased way. There’s almost no evidence that people are voting fraudulently. Thus, I conclude that we need to safeguard against people being prevented from voting illegitimately, not people voting illegitimately. The one is a much more pressing concern than the other. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/577 "2008-10-22T02:00:29Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#): > > See, **Bricker** , here’s the thing: there’s lots of evidence that people are being improperly removed from the rolls of registered voters, and in a biased way. There’s almost no evidence that people are voting fraudulently. Thus, I conclude that we need to safeguard against people being prevented from voting illegitimately, not people voting illegitimately. The one is a much more pressing concern than the other. But what your analysis misses is that there’s very minimal harm from the removal from rolls, since a voter improperly removed can cast a provisional ballot and subsequently have his vote counted. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/578 "2008-10-22T02:36:17Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Surely of the two of us, I’m in a better postion to say what I “know.” YOu may certainly claim I’m wrong, or mistaken, but you have no grounds to say I’m claiming something that I know isn’t true… Its a figure of speech that presumes that the accused is smarter than his argument pretends. Its on a level of “Don’t bat those big brown innocent eyes at me, this ain’t my first rodeo”. > [@](#): > > …I don’t believe that you’re willing to accept the same inferences I am from the available facts… Well, if the fault is in my character, would the same question from a more worthy source be answered? Seems that question has been put to you a number of times, and thus far has gone a-begging. > [@](#): > > …My claim is that voter ID laws are a good idea. I would think locks on front doors are a good idea, even if my house has never once been burglarized – because I can reason my way through the process of seeing the threat and countering it before I have to fill out insurance forms listing the value of all my missing stuff. To steal from Stephanie Miller, “Thanks for playing REALLY Bad Analogy”… ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/579 "2008-10-22T02:47:36Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Surely of the two of us, I’m in a better postion to say what I “know.” YOu may certainly claim I’m wrong, or mistaken, but you have no grounds to say I’m claiming something that I know isn’t true. I have grounds to say so: Despite repeated challanges, you have never presented any evidence here or, AFAIK, in any other thread that voter fraud is a real problem. (Regarding which phrase see post #292). You are a Doper and a lawyer. You have research skills. You are visibly highly interested in this issue. The only plausible reason you have posted no evidence is that you can find none to post. If voter fraud were actually happening on a wide enough scale to affect electoral results, under the level of scrutiny which the RW, with the full support of the Justice Department, has directed at this purported problem for the past eight years, it would be impossible for the perpetrators not to get caught at some point (which is **not** what has happened in ACORN’s case). You are too intelligent to avoid the conclusion that it is not happening. You **know** voter fraud is not a problem. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/580 "2008-10-22T03:09:42Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > My claim is that voter ID laws are a good idea. I would think locks on front doors are a good idea, even if my house has never once been burglarized – because I can reason my way through the process of seeing the threat and countering it before I have to fill out insurance forms listing the value of all my missing stuff. Faulty analogy. You know that other houses have been burglarized; in this case there is no such justification, because there has never been a significant case of voter fraud. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984.md?page=28) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984.md?page=30)