# ACORN submits fraudulent voter registrations en masse **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 8, 2008, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984 "2008-10-08T13:55:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 30
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/581 "2008-10-22T04:28:13Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#): > > Faulty analogy. You know that other houses have been burglarized; in this case there is no such justification, because there has never been a significant case of voter fraud. Huh?!? Chicago, 1960, the Daley machine? ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/582 "2008-10-22T04:36:25Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Huh?!? > > Chicago, 1960, the Daley machine? got anything that happened less than a half a century ago? No, you don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/583 "2008-10-22T04:54:35Z")
> [@askeptic](#): > > got anything that happened less than a half a century ago? No, you don’t. Please follow the line of argument: > [@Bricker](#): > > My claim is that voter ID laws are a good idea. I would think locks on front doors are a good idea, even if my house has never once been burglarized – because I can reason my way through the process of seeing the threat and countering it before I have to fill out insurance forms listing the value of all my missing stuff. > [@Captain Carrot](#): > > Faulty analogy. You know that other houses have been burglarized; in this case there is no such justification, because there has never been a significant case of voter fraud. Yes, there has: Chicago, Daley. That’s certainly enough to make me “lock my doors” because I can see it was done before, and the means to stop it are at hand, legal, and easy. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/584 "2008-10-22T06:48:08Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes, there has: Chicago, Daley. That’s certainly enough to make me “lock my doors” because I can see it was done before, and the means to stop it are at hand, legal, and easy. But the locks are already on the doors and then some. Laws and regulations and whatnot have improved. IIRC I posted in this thread awhile back that voter fraud in Federal Elections from 2002-2005 amounted to less than 100 cases with 70 successful prosecutions. Even that was counting any kind of illegal election fraud (not just voter fraud). Not even remotely enough to sway any federal election…not even Florida in 2000. Certainly we should keep (most) of the system in place which prevents election fraud we have today so the likes of what we saw with Daley do not occur again. Yet we can also say, provably, election fraud of the sort you are worried about is near enough to non-existent as makes no matter (IIRC much of the election fraud in those cases above were people unaware of election laws and they inadvertently goofed as opposed to trying to perpetrate fraud for some gain). ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/585 "2008-10-22T06:50:45Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But what your analysis misses is that there’s very minimal harm from the removal from rolls, since a voter improperly removed can cast a provisional ballot and subsequently have his vote counted. Wrong. The harm is not minimal. > [@](#): > > At their best, provisional ballots provide voters who would otherwise be turned away from the polls to have their vote counted, but at their worst, the offer of a provisional ballot can be “a way to brush off troublesome voters by letting them think they have voted.”[4] > > In the 2004 US Presidential Election, controversy arose out of arguments regarding the interpretation of the criteria for determining the eligibility of voters using provisional ballots. Many allege that these discrepancies of interpretations, particularly in Ohio, may have been a deciding factor in the outcome of the election. In the 2004 election, at least 1.9 million provisional ballots were cast, and 676,000 were never counted due to various states’ rules on counting provisional ballots.[5] > > Studies of the use of provisional ballots in the 2006 general election in the United States show that around 21% of provisional ballots were rejected, where the majority of rejected ballots were cast by registered voters and the majority of rejections were for reasons that were preventable.[6] > > SOURCE: [Provisional ballot - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provisional_ballot) ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/586 "2008-10-22T12:09:25Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Wrong. The harm is not minimal. That Wikipedia article makes that claim by citing, in turn, one report. The phrase is worded very carefully: “Studies of the use of provisional ballots in the 2006 general election in the United States show that around 21% of provisional ballots were rejected, where the majority of rejected ballots were cast by registered voters and the majority of rejections were for reasons that were preventable.” Now, an ordinarily myopic reader reacts with horror: 21% rejected! That’s awful. But delving into the report itself reveals one of their recommendtions: get rid of the “wrong precinct” rule. Ah ha! Now we see what their careful wording means; the rejected ballots were indeed cast by registered voters, just in the wrong precinct. According to the report, we should just let that tiny little mistake go. Garbage. We draw voting area lines for a reason, and you vote in a particular area because that’s the way the precincts are created. You can’t vote for the Congressman in my area; that invites people crossing lines to help a contentious race and not worrying about their “safe” district. So, yes – merely because a registered voter cast a provisional ballot is not sufficient – the voter needs to be voting in the precinct where he lives. And if he’s not, I have no heartburn with not counting his attempt to illegally vote. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/587 "2008-10-22T12:15:12Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > But the locks are already on the doors and then some. > > Laws and regulations and whatnot have improved. IIRC I posted in this thread awhile back that voter fraud in Federal Elections from 2002-2005 amounted to less than 100 cases with 70 successful prosecutions. Even that was counting any kind of illegal election fraud (not just voter fraud). Not even remotely enough to sway any federal election…not even Florida in 2000. That’s not the right metric. In your very next link, you talk about the number of provisional ballots rejected - a shocking 21%! Why weren’t all those added to the prosecution numbers? A prosecutor who believes a person made an honest mistake should most certainly not initiate a criminal proscution. There’s no criminal intent. But at the same time, it’s a wrong vote. And of course, other criminal prosecutions may not go forward simply because even though the prosecutor believes there WAS criminal intent, there is insufficient proof – that is, he can’t make proof beyond a reasonable doubt. So no – you can’t point to the number of criminal prosecutions and conclude that this is the total number of improper votes. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/588 "2008-10-22T12:17:35Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So, yes – merely because a registered voter cast a provisional ballot is not sufficient – the voter needs to be voting in the precinct where he lives. And if he’s not, I have no heartburn with not counting his attempt to illegally vote. I agree no one should be able to cast a ballot in the wrong precinct for local politicians. But why should their vote for President or other things (say propositions) not hold? Why toss the baby out with the bath water? I seriously doubt the people who did the above were intent on swaying a local election and likely goofed (in Chicago polling places are all over the place and your closest polling place may not be your polling place…not at all intuitive and not unreasonable for people to make mistakes…of course this is Chicago so one never knows ;)). ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/589 "2008-10-22T12:52:13Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I seriously doubt the people who did the above were intent on swaying a local election and likely goofed (in Chicago polling places are all over the place and your closest polling place may not be your polling place…not at all intuitive and not unreasonable for people to make mistakes…of course this is Chicago so one never knows ;)). Not only that, but in many cases, people go to the right polling place, but that polling place has multiple precincts, with workers sending people to the wrong table (and hence precinct). ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/590 "2008-10-22T13:08:20Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But what your analysis misses is that there’s very minimal harm from the removal from rolls, since a voter improperly removed can cast a provisional ballot and subsequently have his vote counted. > [@Bricker](#): > > merely because a registered voter cast a provisional ballot is not sufficient – the voter needs to be voting in the precinct where he lives. And if he’s not, I have no heartburn with not counting his attempt to illegally vote. And if you’re not on the rolls, the fact that you’re name’s not on the list will be no tipoff that it isn’t your precinct. Some people have work schedules that don’t give them a whole lot of time to resolve things like this. What it comes down to is that you are fine with any trivial error trumping a legitimate voter’s right to vote. I have to say that I find that to be a reprehensible position. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/591 "2008-10-22T13:49:19Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > That’s not the right metric. In your very next link, you talk about the number of provisional ballots rejected - a shocking 21%! Why weren’t all those added to the prosecution numbers? > > A prosecutor who believes a person made an honest mistake should most certainly not initiate a criminal proscution. There’s no criminal intent. > > But at the same time, it’s a wrong vote. > > And of course, other criminal prosecutions may not go forward simply because even though the prosecutor believes there WAS criminal intent, there is insufficient proof – that is, he can’t make proof beyond a reasonable doubt. > > So no – you can’t point to the number of criminal prosecutions and conclude that this is the total number of improper votes. Are we talking about fraudulent voting or simple errors in voting? I was responding to your claim of rampant vote fraud in Chicago and the need to have laws in place to prevent that. You are correct 90+ prosecutions does not necessarily mean there were only 90+ cases where they thought something looked fishy. Still, and you would know this better than I would, is it reasonable to suppose there is rampant vote fraud but the prosecutors can only bring those 90+ cases in three years? I think it is reasonable to suppose the suspected cases would not be dramatically higher than the cases they brought to trial. Even if it is 5x as many suspected cases we are still at a mere drop in the bucket when it comes to swaying a Federal election. As for ballots that were cast in error certainly they should not be counted. But do you have any basis to suppose vast numbers, sufficient to alter a Federal election, are slipping through the cracks? If you are proposing the need for solutions to a problem seems to me you need to show there is a problem in the first place (a real problem…not a handful of ballots that are improperly counted such that they cannot possibly make a difference in the election as there will always be a few goofs no matter what system you propose). Show that the current checks are not sufficient. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/592 "2008-10-22T14:05:15Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I agree no one should be able to cast a ballot in the wrong precinct for local politicians. But why should their vote for President or other things (say propositions) not hold? Why toss the baby out with the bath water? That’s a fair point. Right now, it’s an all-or-nothing proposition. I would support some method whereby the wrong precinct disallows your local votes, but as long as you’re in the right state, your Presidential vote counts… but we’d have to work through problems. For example, one indicia of fraud during the 2004 campaign came from a precinct that reported more votes than it had registered voters (although IIRC the problem turned out to be an error in reporting). But the solution we discuss would have to somehow account for the fact that we’re taking a voter from Precinct 12 and counting him in Precinct 65. Still, in this age of information, I can’t imagine that’s an impossible task, and I would absolutely support that change. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/593 "2008-10-22T19:08:14Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Repub judge what do you expect. Florida loves to cut out voters. They are very good at it. The Harris legacy is alive and well. BWAHBWAH my ass. People are having their right to vote taken away. The bedrock right on which everything else is mounted on, is ignored for political reasons again. > [@Bricker](#): > > **Gonzomax** : the judge who ruled in this case was Stephen Mickle. He’s a Democrat. > > Why did you say he was a Republican, when that wasn’t true? Re-asking this question as **gonzomax** evidently missed it. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/594 "2008-10-23T21:05:07Z")
[And more . . .](http://www.kansascity.com/449/story/854311.html) > [@](#): > > WASHINGTON — Colorado Democrats accused a Republican county clerk Wednesday of falsely informing Colorado College that students from outside the state could not register to vote if their parents claimed them as a dependent on their tax returns. > > At a news conference in Colorado Springs, Democrats also criticized Robert Balink, the El Paso County clerk and recorder, who was a delegate to the Republican National Convention, for taking other steps they said would dampen voting by college students, who are expected to heavily favor Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama. > > “When election officials spread false information about who is eligible to vote and remove, not add, polling places, we need to be concerned that eligible voters will be denied their right to vote,” said Pat Waak, chairwoman of the Colorado Democratic Party. > > Balink issued a statement saying his office had misinterpreted state law and “mistakenly published information that was incorrect.” > > Balink’s actions are the latest of several instances in which local election officials, including some in Virginia and South Carolina, have discouraged college students from voting in a year in which legions of students have thrown their energy behind Obama. Voter suppression is real. Voter fraud is not. You **know** it, **Bricker.** ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/595 "2008-10-23T21:22:27Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Voter suppression is real. Voter fraud is not. You **know** it, **Bricker.** There’s this I just saw as well: > [@](#): > > But University of Washington law professor Eric Schnapper says the idea of fake cards turning into real votes is a myth. > > “There are no known instances of fictitious people actually voting,” Schnapper said. “You look at some of the names: Mickey Mouse. Dr. Seuss. Mickey Mouse only votes in Disneyland. He’s not going to show up at a critical precinct in West Virginia or North Carolina.” > > Schnapper said that if anyone should be upset, it’s ACORN. > > “The victims of this are the people who paid these workers $8 an hour to go out and find legitimate voters, and … they didn’t get their $8 worth; they put down phony names,” Schnapper said. > > \ > > A report from the nonpartisan Brennan Center for Justice at the New York University Law School supports his claim. Researchers reviewed voter fraud claims across the country and found that most were caused by technical glitches, clerical errors or mistakes made by voters. One other finding: A person is more likely to be struck by lightning than to impersonate another voter at the polls. > > SOURCE: [Ex-ACORN worker: 'I paid the price' for voter registration fraud - CNN.com](http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/22/voter.fraud/index.html?imw=Y&iref=mpstoryemail) ---
**Author:** ![descamisado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@descamisado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/descamisado)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/596 "2008-10-23T21:31:29Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > There’s this I just saw as well: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10350246&postcount=66](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10350246&postcount=66) [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10350499&postcount=68](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10350499&postcount=68). ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/597 "2008-10-23T21:45:56Z")
> [@5-4-Fighting](#): > > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10350246&postcount=66](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10350246&postcount=66) > > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10350499&postcount=68](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10350499&postcount=68). Dang it! :smack: Thread is so long I forgot. My bad…carry on… ETA: Wait…that is a different thread! No fair! ---
**Author:** ![descamisado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@descamisado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/descamisado)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/598 "2008-10-23T22:07:38Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Dang it! :smack: > > Thread is so long I forgot. > > My bad…carry on… > > ETA: Wait…that is a different thread! No fair! Sorry, I was in a hurry and should have stated it was a different thread, but since the topics are similar I thought I’d save you some time (and heartache). 😛 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/599 "2008-10-28T17:16:15Z")
Update: [ACORN is fighting back,](http://www.boston.com/news/politics/politicalintelligence/2008/10/acorn_fights_ba.html) with an ad denouncing Pub voter suppression and several lawsuits. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984.md?page=29)