# ACORN submits fraudulent voter registrations en masse **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 8, 2008, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984 "2008-10-08T13:55:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2008, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/61 "2008-10-08T16:25:07Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > …it makes Democrats look bad. No, it doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2008, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/62 "2008-10-08T16:38:49Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > How so? Cuz the mortgage crisis happened because poor people and brown people wanted to own houses, and the Clinton administration made Bush let them, and then they started being employed by these agencies, and then EVERYTHING CAME CRASHING DOWN! I’m not as good at imitating a dittohead loony as I thought I was. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2008, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/63 "2008-10-08T16:43:25Z")
> [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](#): > > If it makes any difference, Bricker, I couldn’t possibly lose more respect for you than I already have. So you might as well go ahead and tell us. > > So anyway, back to what you said about the one making the claim being responsible for providing evidence, you are making the claim that voter ID laws are necessary. Perhaps you have some evidence of that, maybe some examples of people who have gone to the polls and voted under someone else’s name? Please share with the rest of the class. I imagine must of the rest of the class is following the existing inference. If these forms had not been discovered, and no voter ID law exists, there’s very little stopping a person from showing up and claiming to be Terrell Owens (“Oh, yeah.. not THE Terrell Owens; I get that all the time…”) and voting. Now, it’s true that since Election Day has not come, this hasn’t yet happened this year. But we don’t need to see a burning building to infer a law against arson is a good idea, as well as some building codes that specify fire-resistant materials. This, of course, differs great from the “It wouldn’t surprise me if…” argument offers above, for a number of very clear and obvious reasons. If you need them explained in detail, I’ll be happy to do so. > [@](#): > > Incidentally, before Indiana passed the notorious, discriminatory, reprehensible … You forgot “and ultimately ruled _constitutional…_” > [@](#): > > …voter ID act, it had a way of verifying voters. I worked the polls many times, and we had a book of every voter’s signature, scanned from their voter registration form. When anyone came in to vote, they had to sign a form. The poll worker would then compare the signature to the one on file. If they matched, all was cool. If they did not match, further investigation was required, such as the showing of ID. Of course, I never saw signatures not match, because what in the hell is the incentive to go vote under a different name? If you go say you’re somebody else, and sign the form, you’ve just committed a Class C Felony, punishable by up to 8 years in prison. You think people are willing to risk 8 years in prison, for… what, again? One lousy extra vote? It’s not worth it. What do you think of that system? What advantages does showing ID have over it, other than the obvious advantage of disenfranchising a lot of poor people who would likely vote in a way you don’t like? If the IDs are provided at no cost to poor people, it’s unclear to me how they are “disenfranchised” by the requirement. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2008, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/64 "2008-10-08T16:51:35Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#): > > Cuz the mortgage crisis happened because poor people and brown people wanted to own houses, and the Clinton administration made Bush let them, and then they started being employed by these agencies, and then EVERYTHING CAME CRASHING DOWN! > > I’m not as good at imitating a dittohead loony as I thought I was. Not bad, but a little too over the top. I would have gone with: “The Community Reinvestment Act FORCED the mortgage business to offer low rates to low-income minorities with poor credit. Freddie Mae and Fannie Mac, and others, harmlessly bought up all that bad debt and got completely shafted when those people couldn’t afford their ballooning mortgage payments. Because of those low income minorities, the credit crisis came about.” See, that way, you mention an actual Act, so it sounds more official. And then you can blame Democrats too. It lets you blame people AND you sound more official. Nevermind it’s a gross simplification that doesn’t hold up, but, c’mon, what did you expect? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2008, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/65 "2008-10-08T16:52:23Z")
> [@askeptic](#): > > No, it doesn’t. Sure it does. If not the actions of ACORN themselves, the hand waving. Another day on the SDMB… But perhaps there is hope. At least **tomndebb** didn’t just toss this to the Pit, he only _threatened_ to. Hope springs eternal. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2008, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/66 "2008-10-08T16:57:10Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > But perhaps there is hope. At least **tomndebb** didn’t just toss this to the Pit, he only _threatened_ to. Hope springs eternal. **tomndebb** did not have an unreasonable reaction; I should have thought about it a bit more and developed the voter ID argument better in my OP. My “topic for debate” was obviously tongue-in-cheek but there wasn’t an immediately obvious real GD here. I trust there is now, though. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2008, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/67 "2008-10-08T16:59:11Z")
Wait gosh-darn-diddly moment. I’m serious. I mean, \*\*Hamlet \*\*and \*\*Captain Carrot \*\*… jokes … I like jokes. But seriously, I am fully admitting my ignorance here. I never even heard of ACORN before reading this thread. What am I missing? I mean beside some junior level workers being junior level fuck ups, is there some big nasty conspiracy afoot with the HUD mortgage crisis that has slipped under the radar? Or is it truly as you’ve said and yet another attempt at a smear with no basis in fact? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2008, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/68 "2008-10-08T16:59:35Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > While I certainly appreciate the Reject And Denounce Club (RADECL, isn’t it called?) it would be ever so heartwarming to see them following their rejecting and denouncing with, “…and I now support the voter ID initiatives, since it’s clear that fraud in registrations exists and this type of fraud can be stopped by requiring voter IDs.” Since this type of fraud was stopped _without_ voter ID, I don’t really see the need for it. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2008, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/69 "2008-10-08T17:00:53Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > **tomndebb** did not have an unreasonable reaction; I should have thought about it a bit more and developed the voter ID argument better in my OP. My “topic for debate” was obviously tongue-in-cheek but there wasn’t an immediately obvious real GD here. > > I trust there is now, though. At least he let it stick around to see if that was going to be the case. It’s an improvement and I commend him for it. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2008, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/70 "2008-10-08T17:02:49Z")
[Montana’s Republican Party tries to disenfranchise 6000 voters](http://www.kpax.com/global/story.asp?s=9142552) and eventually have to slink off and withdraw their lawsuit because it was so unsupported yet the SDMB’s conservatives look intently elsewhere! But the thing is, I don’t have any way of knowing if the SDMB’s conservatives are ignoring this story or if they haven’t heard it or even if they’ve heard it and don’t consider it big news. This presumption of guilt game “You KNEW about it! You just were ashamed to ADMIT it!” is ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2008, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/71 "2008-10-08T17:05:59Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I imagine must of the rest of the class is following the existing inference. If these forms had not been discovered, and no voter ID law exists, there’s very little stopping a person from showing up and claiming to be Terrell Owens (“Oh, yeah.. not THE Terrell Owens; I get that all the time…”) and voting. Except, as I mentioned before, the requirement for a signature, and the fact that there is literally nothing to be gained by such an insignificant gesture, and the 8 years in prison awaiting anyone who tries to do it. All of which, I noticed, you declined to comment upon despite my specific request that you do so. > [@](#): > > You forgot “and ultimately ruled _constitutional…_” Irrelevant to the fact that it is reprehensible. Jim Crow laws were ruled constitutional too. > [@](#): > > If the IDs are provided at no cost to poor people, it’s unclear to me how they are “disenfranchised” by the requirement. Really? No cost? So the state is paying for cab fare to the BMV? Is it sending a van to pick up people in wheelchairs? Is it paying for mobile ICU transport for sick people? Is it guaranteeing that people will not lose their jobs if they leave work to visit the BMV during its limited open hours? See, when Mitch Daniels came in four years ago, the first thing he did was start pushing this stupid law. And when it became obvious that it would pass, he unilaterally closed down a bunch of BMV branches. In places that leaned Democratic. Like Gary, a Democratic stronghold. He closed down the only branch that someone living in Gary could get to on a bus line. A branch that had issued 65,000 IDs the year before. Public outcry forced him to, reluctantly, after the fact, open a “limited service” BMV branch in the city. But his intent in all this maneuvering was crystal clear to anyone with a brain. ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2008, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/72 "2008-10-08T17:09:33Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > …since it’s clear that fraud in registrations exists and this type of fraud can be stopped by requiring voter IDs." Perhaps — but this administration hasn’t demonstrated that it can keep its fingers out of the pie when it comes to _federal judges_ so it’s not particularly clear to me how any government voter-ID agency would be wholly free of fraud. So implement a voter ID system. How can you guarantee that such a system would be better than what we have now? At least now we have two parties, each with a vested interest in keeping an eye on the other. What would change? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2008, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/73 "2008-10-08T17:10:41Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Since this type of fraud was stopped _without_ voter ID, I don’t really see the need for it. Since the building fire was put out with some water, I don’t see the need for fire extinguishers on every floor. Or maybe… just maybe… we could infer that perhaps other instances of similar fraud have happened undetected, or could happen undetected in the future, and that requiring ID would be a reasonable safety measure to catch them. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2008, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/74 "2008-10-08T17:10:59Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Since this type of fraud was stopped _without_ voter ID, I don’t really see the need for it. Well, [this guy](http://www.ajc.com/opinion/content/opinion/stories/2008/10/08/garlocked_1008.html)had some firsthand, personal experience with the slimeballs at ACORN, and he seems to think voter ID to prevent such voter fraud is a good idea. ---
**Author:** ![ArizonaTeach](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/45deac/32.png) [@ArizonaTeach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ArizonaTeach)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2008, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/75 "2008-10-08T17:11:15Z")
Looks like it’s happening in [Ohio, too.](http://www.myfoxcleveland.com/myfox/pages/News/Detail?contentId=7599386&version=1&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=TSTY&pageId=3.2.1) ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2008, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/76 "2008-10-08T17:12:57Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > [Montana’s Republican Party tries to disenfranchise 6000 voters](http://www.kpax.com/global/story.asp?s=9142552) and eventually have to slink off and withdraw their lawsuit because it was so unsupported yet the SDMB’s conservatives look intently elsewhere! > > But the thing is, I don’t have any way of knowing if the SDMB’s conservatives are ignoring this story or if they haven’t heard it or even if they’ve heard it and don’t consider it big news. This presumption of guilt game “You KNEW about it! You just were ashamed to ADMIT it!” is ridiculous. Yes, yes, it’s ridiculous. I officially withdraw any insinuation that the SDMB cadre of liberals were doing anything but their usual intent review of all relevant election news. No bias should be inferred by the failure of this to be posted before my post. Now how about the voter ID issue? ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2008, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/77 "2008-10-08T17:13:09Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Wait gosh-darn-diddly moment. I’m serious. > > I mean, \*\*Hamlet \*\*and \*\*Captain Carrot \*\*… jokes … I like jokes. I do too. The sad thing is, mine wasn’t a joke. > [@JackBatty](#): > > But seriously, I am fully admitting my ignorance here. I never even heard of ACORN before reading this thread. What am I missing? I mean beside some junior level workers being junior level fuck ups, is there some big nasty conspiracy afoot with the HUD mortgage crisis that has slipped under the radar? > > Or is it truly as you’ve said and yet another attempt at a smear with no basis in fact? If you accept the premise that the financial crisis is the result of minorities defaulting on their mortgages as I described above (which is still wrong, but let that go for now), then the next step is to look at who is to blame for that. One group that “deserves” such blame is ACORN. ACORN, in Chicago and elsewhere, were one group that helped push for the enactment of the CRA. ACORN also worked with local banks to force them to give bad loans to minorities. ACORN also, oddly enough, was supported by Obama. Which, oddly enough, is another reason to vote against him. Funny how that works out. [You can get the gist of the claims, here](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9p4inuSaO9M&feature=related). [Here is just one article pointing out the flaws in their “logic” of blaming ACORN and low income minorities for the crises.](http://www.slate.com/id/2201641/) ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2008, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/78 "2008-10-08T17:17:11Z")
> [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](#): > > See, when Mitch Daniels came in four years ago, the first thing he did was start pushing this stupid law. And when it became obvious that it would pass, he unilaterally closed down a bunch of BMV branches. In places that leaned Democratic. Like Gary, a Democratic stronghold. He closed down the only branch that someone living in Gary could get to on a bus line. A branch that had issued 65,000 IDs the year before. Public outcry forced him to, reluctantly, after the fact, open a “limited service” BMV branch in the city. But his intent in all this maneuvering was crystal clear to anyone with a brain. Wow. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2008, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/79 "2008-10-08T17:17:50Z")
> [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](#): > > Except, as I mentioned before, the requirement for a signature, and the fact that there is literally nothing to be gained by such an insignificant gesture, and the 8 years in prison awaiting anyone who tries to do it. All of which, I noticed, you declined to comment upon despite my specific request that you do so. Without knowing more than your story, it’s difficult to form an opinion. How solicitous were the signature comparisons? And even if the signatures were spot on… where did the “proof” signature come from? Presumably the voter registration. If we imagine it to be fraudulent, all we have to assume is the same person signing a dozen bad forms and then voting a dozen times in a dozen precincts, each time with a perfectly matched signature. As apparently happened in Ohio, as my preview reading reveals from **ArizonaTeach** ’s link. > [@](#): > > Irrelevant to the fact that it is reprehensible. Jim Crow laws were ruled constitutional too. Well, then I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree. > [@](#): > > Really? No cost? So the state is paying for cab fare to the BMV? Is it sending a van to pick up people in wheelchairs? Is it paying for mobile ICU transport for sick people? Is it guaranteeing that people will not lose their jobs if they leave work to visit the BMV during its limited open hours? These objections would all seem to apply to the actual act of voting, as well. Yet you would not, I hope, argue that people are disenfranchised because the state fails to fund cab fare in wheelchair-capable taxis from their homes to the polls. We expect, in other words, that in order to vote, people make some effort. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2008, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/80 "2008-10-08T17:22:40Z")
That’s an “intimate link?” Chirst. That’s about as an intimate a link as the Pro Bowling Association is to OPEC (they oil the lanes, you know). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984.md?page=5)