# ACORN submits fraudulent voter registrations en masse **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 8, 2008, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984 "2008-10-08T13:55:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2008, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/161 "2008-10-08T20:59:46Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > Certainly, we are now seeing the unintended consequences of helping people get loans that they can’t afford. Not really. The CRA came into existence in 1977. We managed to avoid economic issues from it for 20 years with no real problems. Remove deregulation and investors saw a crack in the system and dogpiled on it. That it was the subprime loans at the base does not in and of itself make the subprime loans automatically bad. That would be like saying you spilled gasoline on your stove and it blew up means stoves are bad. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2008, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/162 "2008-10-08T21:01:16Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > If the ID in question is to be required for voting, it’s unconstitutional, unless there’s some “from each according to his ability” verbiage hidden away in some emanation from a penumbra of the Twenty-Fourth Amendment. Uh… did you miss _Crawford v. Marion County Election Board_? ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2008, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/163 "2008-10-08T21:01:51Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So requested. Suggestion: remove the words following the semi-colon in the title. They should probably change the word “submits” to “reports” if you have any desire for accuracy… ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2008, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/164 "2008-10-08T21:13:49Z")
> [@askeptic](#): > > They should probably change the word “submits” to “reports” if you have any desire for accuracy… So far as I can tell, that is by no means determined. ACORN’s statement claims that they reported the fraud; this does not seem to be backed up by the state investigators. ACORN has an obvious interest in being self-serving with their version. (I know, I know – they’re a lefty social justice group and can do no wrong.) ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2008, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/165 "2008-10-08T21:23:29Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > ACORN has an obvious interest in being self-serving with their version. Agreed; also, they have a track record. This is not the first time this has happened to ACORN. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2008, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/166 "2008-10-08T21:27:54Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I agree at the end of the day we need to take responsibility for our own actions. > > However, buying a house is not usually considered in the same risky investment realm as trading options. > > Also consider what happens if your Schwab broker is intentionally leading you astray so he can make higher broker fees. Granted in the Options environment this is more your own issue to deal with but again buying a house to raise a family is not seen in the same risky behavior category. Society wants people in houses…society does not care if it gets another trader. I think we basically agree. I’ll just say that while a house is a good and noble endeavor, it is, in the end a very large financial transaction—for most people, the single largest financial transaction of their lives. One must be expected to treat it with the care it requires. My sister bought a car not too long ago and got taken to the cleaners. If she would have done more work and been more prudent with her money she could easily have gotten a much better deal. Ignorance, as they say, can be very expensive. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2008, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/167 "2008-10-08T21:41:00Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > (I know, I know – they’re a lefty social justice group and can do no wrong.) While not dispositive, that is at any rate a more reasonable position than its IOKIARDI counterpart. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2008, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/168 "2008-10-08T21:41:01Z")
[Texas AG fails to unravel large-scale voter-fraud schemes in his two-year campaign](http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/localnews/stories/DN-votefraud_18tex.ART.State.Edition2.46e18c2.html) > [@](#): > > More than two years ago, Republican Attorney General Greg Abbott pledged to root out what he called an epidemic of voter fraud in Texas. > > He established a special unit in his office, tapped a $1.4 million federal crime-fighting grant and dispatched investigators. > > Since then, Mr. Abbott has prosecuted 26 cases – all against Democrats, a review by The Dallas Morning News shows. > > The cases usually have resulted in small fines and little or no jail time, and for all the extra attention, Mr. Abbott has not unraveled any large-scale schemes with the potential to swing elections. ---
**Author:** ![Randy\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ee7513/32.png) [@Randy\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Randy_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2008, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/169 "2008-10-08T21:42:53Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Uh… did you miss _Crawford v. Marion County Election Board_? Ooh ooh! Me! Me! I think what **Steve** is referring to is the fact that it remains unconstitutional to require ID, and then charge money to obtain said ID. The Indiana Law that now mandates an ID requirement (SEA 483, in case you were wondering), also eliminated the fee to obtain the ID, thus skirting the “poll tax” objection. Otherwise, I’m totally with ya. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2008, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/170 "2008-10-09T00:02:34Z")
**Bricker** , I’m fine with requiring photo ID of all voters, if we eliminate absentee ballots. I’m sure you see the potential for voter fraud via mailed-in votes. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2008, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/171 "2008-10-09T00:24:38Z")
> [@Randy\_Seltzer](#): > > Ooh ooh! Me! Me! > > I think what **Steve** is referring to is the fact that it remains unconstitutional to require ID, and then charge money to obtain said ID. The Indiana Law that now mandates an ID requirement (SEA 483, in case you were wondering), also eliminated the fee to obtain the ID, thus skirting the “poll tax” objection. > > Otherwise, I’m totally with ya. Precisely. A means-based charge still runs afoul of the prohibition on poll taxes, even if it arguably is not an example of the disenfranchisement the Amendment was intended to prohibit. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2008, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/172 "2008-10-09T00:56:06Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > You are having some difficulty grasping the notion of a “cite”. An opinion piece is not a cite, unless it is offered to prove that somebody thinks a certain way, or has a particular partisan slant. But as support for a fact-based argument, it is useless. > > With me so far? Good. With you? I’m ahead of you, Luci. You are having some difficulty grasping the fact that there are different kinds of opinion pieces. Some offer a purely personal perspective, such as the grief or anger felt at the assassination of a public figure or the writer’s moral attitude towards a public policy such as capital punishment or affirmative action. Obviously these don’t have much value as sources of factual information. But other pieces will cite specific facts in an attempt to influence readers’ opinions–and when one does, using it as a cite for informal conversation on the Internet is entirely appropriate. Sure, there are better sources of information, such as scholarly papers in a peer-reviewed journal or investigative journalism in a reputable paper or magazine, but the fact that more impressive types of cites exist doesn’t mean that all the other types are invalid. I don’t know where you people get this strange idea that opinion pieces should never be offered as cites or sources of information. > [@elucidator](#): > > Mr Gorlock offers only his own testimony to support his suggestion of being under threat from ACORN “thugs”. Again, unless some evidence is offered to support that contention, it stands solely on Mr. Gorlock’s say-so. Mr Gorlock has a long history as a partisan Republican, available via Google. I characterize that as “hack”, you are free to think of it as “gospel”, it is nonetheless partisan. “Partisan,” however, is not the semantic equivalent of “untrue.” Unless you’ve got other, better sources of information which contradict him or can show that he has a history of lying about such things, your attempt to discredit him is an unsupported attack on his character. Garlock states that: 1. He was the director of the eastern region of the Resolution Trust Corporation, the corporation charged with straightening out the S&L debacle. 2. ACORN demanded that foreclosed housing be made available for free. 3. ACORN demonstrated and tried to intimidate the staff. 4. The RTC office in King of Prussia, Pa., needed police officers to escort staff to and from their cars to prevent assaults on their person, and vandalism to their vehicles. Any journalist who knows what he’s doing would be able to confirm or refute those claims from public records. As Garlock is setting himself up for a mighty big fall if he’s lying, I’m immensely skeptical that he’d make these claims if he knew he couldn’t back them up. Now, can you give me specific reasons to believe he’s lying? > [@elucidator](#): > > If simple assertion without further support is a “cite”, then I can slap any comment from _Daily Kos_ onto the screen, and demand that it be accepted as fact unless proven otherwise. If an article in the Kos offers specific information which is verifiable, then an article on the Kos could be offered as a cite. The piece I offered was published in the Atlanta Journal and Constitution, a reputable paper which takes some trouble to vet its writers. Obviously the AJ&C is a better cite than the Kos, even if the cite offered is an opinion piece. > [@elucidator](#): > > Which is why we have standards. (yawn) What do you mean by “we,” and what are the standards? Who decided on these standards for the SDMB, and when? Any published piece, opinion or not, which offers verifiable information can be a valid cite. In the past I’ve used opinion pieces ranging from Jack London’s essay on socialism to Harlan Ellison’s _The Glass Teat_ as cites. The question isn’t whether or not the piece is “opinion,” the question is whether or not the information therein is presented as objectively factual and verifiable. > [@elucidator](#): > > An unsupported opinion piece (you can check that, it says “opinion” right there on the page…) does not rise to that standard. It is not a cite. It does not deserve the dignity afforded to a cite. Umm–how is it “unsupported” when he cites specific facts to justify his low opinion of ACORN? Again, he presents facts. If you think those facts aren’t true, you need to make a case. > [@elucidator](#): > > Need I type slower? No, but you do need to work on you manners. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2008, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/173 "2008-10-09T01:58:27Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Whoa! While I generally agree with your position, your analogy is truly insulting—to poor people. We don’t ascribe as much blame to children because they are not expected to be on equal footing with adults. They are not fully developed individuals yet. While education levels might not match those of wealthier citizens, do you really want to say, or even imply, that poor people are similarly deficient? They they are unable to make informed decisions. If so, why should we let them vote at all? Yes, I’m implying that a substantial number of poor people do not make responsible decisions. While age is a legal qualifier for adulthood it does not bestow common sense or the skill sets that a 12 year education should provide. I find it the worst evil to encourage such people to buy a house. It is normally the most important investment anyone makes and it should come from individual effort. Any help in the process should be in the form of education and/or personal investment (habitat programs where the future homeowner builds part of the house). Knowledge and sweat equity can be leveraged against a down payment. It’s hard to discuss something like this in a few sentences because people jump to the conclusion that a general observation is all encompassing. There are always going to be extenuating circumstances but after observing people for 50 years its painfully obvious that most who come from an impoverished background are poorly educated with little or no help from their parents. They are not capable of taking care of themselves as adults, which is critical to the concept of adulthood. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2008, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/174 "2008-10-09T02:04:44Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > For a moderator who is suppose to read through the threads you can be pretty selective with this task when you want to. The sentence that followed clearly indicates they have a quota to make or risk termination: **ACORN canvassers are paid by the hour. Ex-employees also said they were expected to collect 20 complete forms a shift or risk probation and termination, the investigator said in his affidavit.** > > This is the tip of the iceberg for ACORN. They are intimately linked to the HUD mortgage problem and the people on this board are turning a blind eye because it makes Democrats look bad. What does my being a moderator have to do with you going to a separate site than that which I read (and to which I linked) and finding different information than was availaible to me? If you want to make trumped up accusations about selective quoting, at least have enough respect for yourself to actually read the same text that I quoted. As to your feverish belief that ACORN somehow twisted the arms of a Republican controlled government and all the various banking and credit holding corporations and institutions for six years to prevent the government from correcting errors of regulation and compel the corporations to behave in the least prudent manner possible, I see no reason to try to combine that with a separate charge of a voter fraud conspiracy. Perhaps ACORN is the new Trilateral Commission? > [@Bricker](#): > > [Quote=tomndebb] > Any signs of voter fraud, yet? Registration fraud is not the same thing as voter fraud. Someone needs to actually attempt to vote (or be denied the right to vote) for it to be voter fraud. That’s a rather… nice distinction, in the Shakespearean use of the word ‘nice’. Fraud in voter registration is fairly discussed, I believe, under the general rubric of “voter fraud.” [/QUOTE] Actually, my distinction is quite valid. Possessing an unregistered firearm in some states and carrying it in a concealed manner is a violation of the law, but it does not become a matter of adding to “armed robbery” until a robbery is attempted. Underpaid grunts submitting ridiculous names with bogus addresses to pad an assignment for money does not actually get into the same arena as attempting to defraud an election. I am sure that they are covered under the same sections of the Law, but they are really different crimes unless an actual attempt to cast a spurious ballot is made. > [@Bricker](#): > > I wouldn’t be surprised if these registrations were the first part of a massive conspiracy to bus people from precinct to precinct on voting day, armed with their fake information, ready to vote and cry foul if they’re prevented because they don’t have ID. Perhaps you would not be surprised. However, the fact that the agency that collected the petitions attempted to warn the election board of problems with the dcuments and the fact that the state officer who initiated the investigation is of the political party that would most likely stand to benefit from such an action would seem to argue against that, so actually providing evidence that an real attempt at voter fraud (at the level of individual voters) would be a help. Beyond that, I have no problem with establishing a voter ID procedure that is both secure and free. (Secure, of course, would include a legitimate physical (typically paper) trail, so that elections are less likely to be stolen by the company that provides the devices to tally votes and some prohibition against a state officer from removing voters from her state’s rolls based on a document of similar names taken from a different state.) I do have a bit of disappointment in the manner in which you initiated this thread, but I do not have a problem with establishing secure elections. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2008, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/175 "2008-10-09T02:05:28Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Yes, I’m implying that a substantial number of poor people do not make responsible decisions. In light of the current credit crisis caused in no small part by greed and corruption in investment banks, it is equally true that a substantial number wealthy people do not make responsible decisions, either ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2008, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/176 "2008-10-09T02:08:37Z")
Per **Bricker** ’s request, the title has been shortened by the removal of “; SDMB looks intently elsewhere”. [/Modding] ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2008, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/177 "2008-10-09T02:12:10Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Per **Bricker** ’s request, the title has been shortened by the removal of “; SDMB looks intently elsewhere”. > > [/Modding] In the interests of accuracy (300 registration cards out of 80,000), shouldn’t you remove the “en masse” as well? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2008, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/178 "2008-10-09T02:18:15Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > In the interests of accuracy (300 registration cards out of 80,000), shouldn’t you remove the “en masse” as well? If you want accuracy, go to **GQ** and pray or else read (most of) Uncle Cec’s columns. This is **GD** and accuracy is **GD** hard to find in many thread titles. ---
**Author:** ![Frostillicus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Frostillicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frostillicus)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2008, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/179 "2008-10-09T02:27:42Z")
Don’t people have to actually vote fraudulently before voter fraud can occur? ---
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2008, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984/180 "2008-10-09T02:32:48Z")
Y’know what, I must admit that **Bricker** is right, at least about the way _I_ think. I just can’t freak out about 300 or even a thousand fake names. Personally, I’m far more concerned about legitimate, qualified voters being purged from the rolls. To me it is a far, far greater crime to disenfranchise someone incorrectly (whether by negligence or malfeasance) than it is to let a few false names through. [For instance:](http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/09/us/politics/09voting.html?pagewanted=2&ei=5070&emc=eta1) > [@October 9](#): > > In Michigan, some 33,000 voters were removed from the rolls in August, a figure that is far higher than the number of deaths in the state during the same period — about 7,100 — or the number of people who moved out of the state — about 4,400, according to data from the Postal Service. > > In Colorado, some 37,000 people were removed from the rolls in the three weeks after July 21. During that time, about 5,100 people moved out of the state and about 2,400 died, according to postal data and death records. > > In Louisiana, at least 18,000 people were dropped from the rolls in the five weeks after July 23. Over the same period, at least 1,600 people moved out of state and at least 3,300 died. > > The secretaries of state in Michigan and Colorado failed to respond to requests for comment. A spokesman for the Louisiana secretary of state said that about half of the numbers of the voters removed from the rolls were people who moved within the state or who died. The remaining 11,000 or so people seem to have been removed by local officials for other reasons that were not clear, the spokesman said. And yet in general, Republican officials are more concerned with removing voters from the rolls than ensuring that everyone who’s eligible to vote, may: > [@](#): > > Republicans said in the motion that it is central to American democracy that nonqualified voters be forbidden from voting. I couldn’t disagree with them more. I think it is a far worse threat to American democracy when a vote is unjustly prevented than when some hypothetical ex-felon is erroneously granted permission to cast a vote. By all means, if ACORN’s workers acted falsely or incompetently, the corrections should be made. But I just can’t get outraged about this. I’m more afraid that someone who wants to vote will be denied without cause. It might even happen to a Republican. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-submits-fraudulent-voter-registrations-en-masse/466984.md?page=10)