# ACORN workers caught on tape apparently advising on child prostitution **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 11, 2009, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-workers-caught-on-tape-apparently-advising-on-child-prostitution/509681 "2009-09-11T13:19:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 44
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-workers-caught-on-tape-apparently-advising-on-child-prostitution/509681/861 "2009-12-15T17:07:26Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > All of those agencies are controlled by a President who is not likely to have any interest in appealing a decision he probably likes. Do you really think Obama is going to make any priority out of appealing this? Why would he? Maybe, just maybe, because he doesn’t think he wants to spend his political capital on taking a dive on it. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-workers-caught-on-tape-apparently-advising-on-child-prostitution/509681/862 "2009-12-15T17:14:57Z")
He won’t take a dive on it. No one cares about ACORN but the teabaggers who are already inaccessible to him anyway. He’d take a much greater political hit if he started participating in the GOP’s ridiculous (and transparently racist) vendetta against ACORN, both in terms of support from his own base and from the logistical support which is incidentally derived from ACORN’s voter registration drives than he would by just tabling this ruling and ignoring it. None of these agencies are bothered by the decision. It’s pretty much what they all wanted. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-workers-caught-on-tape-apparently-advising-on-child-prostitution/509681/863 "2009-12-15T17:15:11Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I’m talking about as it pertains to a Bill of Attainder. But that’s the thing, **Dio**. The Constitution doesn’t even say what a bill of attainder is. It just says Congress can’t pass one. When I first studied the Constitution in seventh grade, I thought it referred to ALL laws that call out an individual. Imagine my shock when I found that Congress is not forbidden to settle a benefit on an individual. It made me realize that I didn’t really know exactly what a Bill of Attainder is. I’m still not sure. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-workers-caught-on-tape-apparently-advising-on-child-prostitution/509681/864 "2009-12-15T17:22:52Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > He won’t take a dive on it. No one cares about ACORN but the teabaggers who are already inaccessible to him anyway. He’d take a much greater political hit if he started participating in the GOP’s ridiculous (and transparently racist) vendetta against ACORN, both in terms of support from his own base and from the logistical support which is incidentally derived from ACORN’s voter registration drives than he would by just tabling this ruling and ignoring it. > > None of these agencies are bothered by the decision. It’s pretty much what they all wanted. I dunno, I just feel more inclined to trust **Bricker** ’s intuition than yours on an issue like this. No offense, I just feel I’d rather have a pleasant surprise than an unpleasant one, if a surprise is going to come. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-workers-caught-on-tape-apparently-advising-on-child-prostitution/509681/865 "2009-12-15T18:32:28Z")
Why no mention of _Lovett_? In Lovett, Congress tried to legislatively kick people out of their government jobs upon determination that they were Commies. The bill they enacted sought to bar any future payment for their work to them, and effectively barred them from federal service. The Court said that was a bill of attainder because it was punishing them without benefit of a judicial trial. The fact that this funding is for a discretionary benefit doesn’t matter. Otherwise we should have no problem with a bill that prohibits NRA members from receiving Social Security, or a bill that declared Blackwater to be Very Bad and to permanently bar them or any of their affiliates from ever receiving a government contract. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-workers-caught-on-tape-apparently-advising-on-child-prostitution/509681/866 "2009-12-15T18:39:16Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > But that’s the thing, **Dio**. The Constitution doesn’t even say what a bill of attainder is. It just says Congress can’t pass one. When I first studied the Constitution in seventh grade, I thought it referred to ALL laws that call out an individual. Imagine my shock when I found that Congress is not forbidden to settle a benefit on an individual. It made me realize that I didn’t really know exactly what a Bill of Attainder is. > > I’m still not sure. Neither am I, but I would hope my conservative friends such as **Bricker** would at least be a bit troubled by the idea that Congress could write a law to make life difficult for a particular individual or corporation. I’d hope the courts would interpret the prohibition on bills of attainder as broadly as possible to prevent that sort of abuse of power. (The legislature’s being able to say, “You, Frederick Quincy Somerville (I made that name up, hopefully there isn’t a person with that name - Google isn’t turning up any hits!), yeah, YOU can’t ever win any Federal contracts or grants ever again. Why? Because _we don’t like you!_” certainly strikes me as an abuse of power.) Could it be used by parties in Congress to deprive their political enemies of business opportunities open to others similarly situated? That’s what they just did, so yes. If the courts rule that that’s as legal as church on Sunday, it’ll open up a world of hurt for the opponents of whichever party is more ruthless over time. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-workers-caught-on-tape-apparently-advising-on-child-prostitution/509681/867 "2009-12-15T19:36:39Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I agree with you: that’s _exactly_ what she did. Problem is, she doesn’t have the right to do that. She can’t say, “Forget all the legal mumbo-jumbo, we all know what happened here.” You should know that wasn’t what I was talking about, but I guess you had to try and score some kind of “you want to ignore the law” point, so I hope it was fun for you. The issue is whether the Defund Acorn Act violated the Bill of Attainder clause. The Supreme Court has created a two piece test for that determination, one specificity and one whether it is punishment. The law is certainly specific, of that there is no doubt. The question then is if it is punishment, which, as I’ve said, it is. And the Court found it was without having to “ignore all the legal mumbo jumbo” as you assert. Your insistence on gotcha gameplaying at the expense of analysis is sad. Not surprising coming from you, just sad. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-workers-caught-on-tape-apparently-advising-on-child-prostitution/509681/868 "2009-12-15T19:44:34Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > But that’s the thing, **Dio**. The Constitution doesn’t even say what a bill of attainder is. It just says Congress can’t pass one. When I first studied the Constitution in seventh grade, I thought it referred to ALL laws that call out an individual. Imagine my shock when I found that Congress is not forbidden to settle a benefit on an individual. It made me realize that I didn’t really know exactly what a Bill of Attainder is. One thing that helped me get a quick grasp on the issue is [this piece written by the Congressional Research Service](http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:DAitoNuwC3cJ:assets.opencrs.com/rpts/R40826_20090922.pdf+flemming+v.+nester+ACORN&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESi_VRq8f0X3V0KLVy8oSqoWOxYqGIFIcR3T4EEPhO1YH2dp-zVt-N0FPnR4zcdg7xfpqDthIp-uL7zd5v0CqnFbAjWjqty5uZlTCo4psvcueBXYMFsjQ9al3vwXp1Yj8rbrcg0R&sig=AHIEtbQ6ocbMX5pWaemZl1vHE1tYlddaIw) It gives a good introduction to the Bill of Attainder ("the Supreme Court has defined a bill of attainder as a “law that legislatively determines guilt and inflicts punishment upon an identifiable individual without provision of the protections of a judicial trial”). There is much more there, much of it dealing with the ACORN act. I hope it helps. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-workers-caught-on-tape-apparently-advising-on-child-prostitution/509681/869 "2009-12-15T19:57:22Z")
On the bright side, his exquisite parsing of the word “punishment” offers some hope for the Shoot All the Lawyers Bill of 2011, if it can be expressed as a matter of social hygiene and not as “punishment”. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-workers-caught-on-tape-apparently-advising-on-child-prostitution/509681/870 "2009-12-15T21:43:35Z")
I notice that the subject of the thread has been changed. I wonder if it’s because the OP has realized that his initial stance was poorly grounded and based on ideology. I wonder. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-workers-caught-on-tape-apparently-advising-on-child-prostitution/509681/871 "2009-12-15T21:45:30Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > Why no mention of _Lovett_? Lovett involved an Act of Congress that forbid the discretionary payment in the future to a group of people after a right wing witchhunt finding that they were disloyal, bad people. Oh… Wait… ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-workers-caught-on-tape-apparently-advising-on-child-prostitution/509681/872 "2009-12-15T23:46:12Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > (The legislature’s being able to say, “You, Frederick Quincy Somerville (I made that name up, hopefully there isn’t a person with that name - Google isn’t turning up any hits!), yeah, YOU can’t ever win any Federal contracts or grants ever again. Why? Because _we don’t like you!_” certainly strikes me as an abuse of power.) Yes, that’s my sense. But, knowing that **Bricker** tends not to be in the habit of makng up his arguments out of the whole cloth, I’d very much appreciate being pointed to a source where I can educate myself on the specifics of _l’affaire ACORN_. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-workers-caught-on-tape-apparently-advising-on-child-prostitution/509681/873 "2009-12-16T00:33:29Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > You should know that wasn’t what I was talking about, but I guess you had to try and score some kind of “you want to ignore the law” point, so I hope it was fun for you. > > The issue is whether the Defund Acorn Act violated the Bill of Attainder clause. The Supreme Court has created a two piece test for that determination, one specificity and one whether it is punishment. The law is certainly specific, of that there is no doubt. The question then is if it is punishment, which, as I’ve said, it is. And the Court found it was without having to “ignore all the legal mumbo jumbo” as you assert. Your insistence on gotcha gameplaying at the expense of analysis is sad. Not surprising coming from you, just sad. Speaking of… …did we ever settle up our NSA eavesdropping wager from 2006? I honestly don’t recall… ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-workers-caught-on-tape-apparently-advising-on-child-prostitution/509681/874 "2009-12-16T02:00:28Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Speaking of… Ummmm, we were speaking of why you think Judge Gershon’s ruling will be overturned on appeal and your insistence on playing gotcha instead of actual analysis of the issue. We weren’t speaking of illegal wiretapping. > [@Bricker](#): > > …did we ever settle up our NSA eavesdropping wager from 2006? I honestly don’t recall… As I remember, it was a wash. The only court that ruled on the merits of the case found it to be unconstitutional, but the 6th circuit dismissed it relying on a standing issue. The Supreme Court refused to hear the case. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-workers-caught-on-tape-apparently-advising-on-child-prostitution/509681/875 "2009-12-16T02:08:33Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Ummmm, we were speaking of why you think Judge Gershon’s ruling will be overturned on appeal and your insistence on playing gotcha instead of actual analysis of the issue. We weren’t speaking of illegal wiretapping. Yes, that’s true. But it reminded me of our earlier discussion, since that, too, was predicting the results of an appeal from a district court decision to the federal circuit, with each of us predicting a different outcome. In other words, this discussion of prognostication reminded me of a similar discussion we had in the past. > [@](#): > > As I remember, it was a wash. The only court that ruled on the merits of the case found it to be unconstitutional, but the 6th circuit dismissed it relying on a standing issue. The Supreme Court refused to hear the case. That rings a faint bell… seems to me the bet hinged on whether the state secrets would be dispositive, and it got dumped on standing. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-workers-caught-on-tape-apparently-advising-on-child-prostitution/509681/876 "2009-12-16T02:22:12Z")
I’m still curious as to why you think the Obama adminstration would be motivated to challenge this decison at all. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-workers-caught-on-tape-apparently-advising-on-child-prostitution/509681/877 "2009-12-16T20:23:45Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Having heard the inevitable cries of bias on the Harshberger report, I’ll add this, from Salon writer Joe Conason: > > "The videos, he writes, “represent the byproduct of ACORN’s long-standing management weaknesses, including a lack of training, a lack of procedures and a lack of onsite supervision.” > > He notes that the “hidden camera controversy is perceived by many as a third strike against ACORN on the heels of the disclosure in June 2008 of an embezzlement cover-up, which triggered the firing of ACORN’s founder, and the allegations of voter registration fraud during the 2008 election, done in collaboration with Project Vote,” although he goes on to note that several U.S. attorneys found no basis to prosecute ACORN in the registration cases. > > So rather than the “whitewash” reflexively denounced on right-wing Web sites, Harshbarger’s report forthrightly reprimands the ACORN leadership for failing to “meet the expectations and requirements of the stakeholders who supported and benefited from its advocacy and service work.” The report sets forth nine detailed recommendations for improved performance that Harshbarger says the organization must implement immediately." I just don’t know how this could be true. After all, ACORN was the victim in the embezzlement case. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-workers-caught-on-tape-apparently-advising-on-child-prostitution/509681/878 "2009-12-16T22:05:45Z")
That’s correct, they were. You dispute that? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-workers-caught-on-tape-apparently-advising-on-child-prostitution/509681/879 "2009-12-16T23:26:32Z")
Apparently he’s commenting on Harshbarger’s criticism of them for having such sloppy management that embezzlement could occur so easily. Which is still blaming the victim, of course, but at least has some veneer of reasonability, unlike **Mr. Moto** ’s earlier and more choleric partisan excoriations. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2009, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-workers-caught-on-tape-apparently-advising-on-child-prostitution/509681/880 "2009-12-17T14:13:55Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > C’mon - this needn’t be so absolute. When ACORN workers were prosecuted for fraud in Seattle a couple of years back, the organization was not prosecuted - but they did proceed under a consent decree to tighten up their training and supervisory procedures. > > Also, those defending ACORN wouldn’t likely defend the embezzlement of close to a million dollars from the organization in 1999-2000 by the brother of Wade Rathke, the organization’s founder - nor the fact that this crime was kept secret from donors and even the ACORN board so that that man’s reputation could be protected. This blew up last year forcing Dale Rathke to leave the organization (amazingly, he had continued to work for ACORN after the theft) and Wade to reduce his role there. > > [Link.](http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/09/us/09embezzle.html) > > And now comes this. > > ISTM that ACORN has a few matters to set right. And frankly an organization like this has to build up a reputation for integrity. Wade Rathke said he hid the embezzlement because he didn’t want that to be used as a weapon against the organization - but the coverup was worse than the original crime as far as perceptions like this go. > > There are conservative organizations I don’t donate to because I don’t trust them. Were I a liberal, this might be true of ACORN. How is this materially different from what Conason and Harshberger wrote? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-workers-caught-on-tape-apparently-advising-on-child-prostitution/509681.md?page=43)