# ACORN workers caught on tape apparently advising on child prostitution **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 11, 2009, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-workers-caught-on-tape-apparently-advising-on-child-prostitution/509681 "2009-09-11T13:19:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-workers-caught-on-tape-apparently-advising-on-child-prostitution/509681/161 "2009-09-11T19:43:51Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > What are you talking about? Specifically – what are you talking about? Treatment of prisoners at Gitmo and Abu Grahib, to pick two of many examples. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-workers-caught-on-tape-apparently-advising-on-child-prostitution/509681/162 "2009-09-11T19:45:01Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > And you, apparently, don’t know how to read. I stated in my first post that my speculations about ACORN as an organization were based on the assumption that the tapes portrayed the situation accurately. I did not assert that they did. My initial post was in response to people who were defending them using the same set of assumptions. I have been eager to believe nothing, actually. > > Try again. This time, use less hand waiving. Dude, in less than ten hours, this thing has gone to four pages, and probably 20,000 words. Sorry if I missed a few of yours. Calm the fuck down, fer fuck’s sake. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-workers-caught-on-tape-apparently-advising-on-child-prostitution/509681/163 "2009-09-11T19:47:56Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Treatment of prisoners at Gitmo and Abu Grahib, to pick two of many examples. We have more than enough evidence to suggest that treatment at Gitmo, anyway, was condoned and probably approved at the Cabinet level, from my understanding. Even the right-wingers are questioning the value of pursuing it in the court system rather than questioning whether it was approved by the administration. Abu Ghraib is harder to pin down, but it certainly went higher than just Lyndie England and her crew…whether it stopped at the administrative level of the prison itself or went beyond is less certain than in the case of Gitmo. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-workers-caught-on-tape-apparently-advising-on-child-prostitution/509681/164 "2009-09-11T19:48:07Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Treatment of prisoners at Gitmo and Abu Grahib, to pick two of many examples. Do us all a favor and describe up front just what constitutes the Gotcha you’re after this time, okay? It will save us all a lot of guessing. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-workers-caught-on-tape-apparently-advising-on-child-prostitution/509681/165 "2009-09-11T19:49:30Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > We have more than enough evidence to suggest that treatment at Gitmo, anyway, was condoned and probably approved at the Cabinet level, from my understanding. Even the right-wingers are questioning the value of pursuing it in the court system rather than questioning whether it was approved by the administration. Abu Ghraib is harder to pin down, but it certainly went higher than just Lyndie England and her crew…whether it stopped at the administrative level of the prison itself or went beyond is less certain than in the case of Gitmo. And that makes Bush and Cheney guilty? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-workers-caught-on-tape-apparently-advising-on-child-prostitution/509681/166 "2009-09-11T20:01:31Z")
By the way, just for the record, the second video does not involve child prostitution, but just garden variety, adult prostitution, which…who gives a shit. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-workers-caught-on-tape-apparently-advising-on-child-prostitution/509681/167 "2009-09-11T20:03:38Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And that makes Bush and Cheney guilty? It certainly doesn’t rule them out. Nobody’s saying “Export them to the Hague immediately!” (Not seriously, anyway.) But there’s enough smoke to make an investigation to see if there’s fire logically appealing. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-workers-caught-on-tape-apparently-advising-on-child-prostitution/509681/168 "2009-09-11T20:03:46Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And that makes Bush and Cheney guilty? They’ve pretty much both acknowledged that they knew about the torture. Cheney, in particular, appears to have been heavily involved in it. He was desperately trying to torture somebody into saying that Iraq was involved with 9/11. He was unsuccessful. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-workers-caught-on-tape-apparently-advising-on-child-prostitution/509681/169 "2009-09-11T20:15:03Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > They do not. Sorry to piss in your cheerios. > > Not a bit. Four people out of thousands is a very tiny sample. I’m sure I could find at least four cops who have taken bribes from pimps. That doesn’t mean that there is a culture in law enforcement that encourages taking bribes from pimps. > > Unless you can produce a shred of evidence that any of the ACORN employees involved in this story were acting with the knowledge, approval or encouragement of ACORN, either tacitly or explicitly (and to what end, by the way?), then all you’re doing is try to score cheap political points against ACORN, and smear people and a “culture” that you don’t actually know a damn thing about. I tend to disagree about the cop example. A few “stings” where cops are caught taking bribes are distrubing for exactly that reason - they indicate a corporate culture which tolerates bribe-taking. There is simply no other way that such an issue could come to light, as it is very unlikely that _all_ cops would ever be caught taking bribes. A few such incidents indicate, but of course do not prove, there is a widespread problem. That being said, it is of course a far cry from a “sting” by actual internal investigators, to have some shady political mooks with a hefty ideological axe to grind cobble up a heavily edited tape or two and claim it is proof of their victim’s wrong-doing. But assuming the tapes are not deliberate distortions (a big assumption), they _do_ raise questions about the organization’s corporate culture - whether the target is the cops, the Republican party, or ACORN. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-workers-caught-on-tape-apparently-advising-on-child-prostitution/509681/170 "2009-09-11T20:27:39Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > It has been explained to you repeatedly that they are _legally required_ to submit them _anyway_. Gawdamighty. :rolleyes: Yes, I understand that. My point is that they have put incentives in place which guarantee the poor people they hire will attempt to pad the roles. They could easily prevent this. For example, by validating the registrations themselves and only paying for the valid ones. Or by requiring 3rd party witnesses. Or even by spot-checking the registrations handed in and refusing to pay anything if any are found to be fraudulent. Yes, they’d still have to hand the fraudulent ones in, but the fact is that either through negligence, idiocy, or intention, ACORN has set up an incentive system for their vote registration drives which maximizes the possibility that workers will try to game the system. So keep your rolleyes to yourself. It’s not my problem if you’re refusing to look at the issue from any perspective other than the most simplistic one that bolsters your case. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-workers-caught-on-tape-apparently-advising-on-child-prostitution/509681/171 "2009-09-11T20:32:32Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > ACORN doesn’t have a CHOICE about the policy. Please inform yourself. They are required BY LAW to submit the bogus registrations. They are not ALLOWED to decide what registrations are or or not valid. All they can do is flag the ones they are suspicious about, which they do CONSISTENTLY, and which is the _reason we know about them in the first place._ > > What part of this is not getting through to you? > > One more time - > > ACORN is REQUIRED BY LAW to submit all registration forms, regardless of how bogus they look. It’s not their policy to change, m’kay. It’s the law. > > Could you please acknowledge that you understand this point. See my response to ElvisL1ves. Your are intentionally avoiding the larger point in order to stick to your script that portrays them as unwitting victims of the process. ACORN could take all sorts of steps to minimize the number of fraudulent registrations they accept in the first place. They refuse to do so. They know their policies increase the probability of fraudulent registrations being turned in, and they refuse to change them. Therefore, they are liable. Furthermore, they appear to have a policy of turning in these registrations as late as possible, which puts a heavy burden on election officials to validate them. Either they are doing this on purpose, or they are a completely incompetent organization that can’t get its act together and turn in registrations in a timely manner. Either way, they suck. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-workers-caught-on-tape-apparently-advising-on-child-prostitution/509681/172 "2009-09-11T20:36:15Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > It certainly doesn’t rule them out. Nobody’s saying “Export them to the Hague immediately!” (Not seriously, anyway.) But there’s enough smoke to make an investigation to see if there’s fire logically appealing. Actually, I bet I can find ten posts onthis board saying essentially precisely that, with no indicia of lack of seriousness. But I agree that there’s no evidence to investigate them – I have for a long time. I just don’t agree there’s enough evidence to declare them guilty. Here, we have much the same situation. I think there’s enough evidence here to warrant a further probe into ACORN’s practices. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-workers-caught-on-tape-apparently-advising-on-child-prostitution/509681/173 "2009-09-11T20:41:08Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Yes, I understand that. My point is that they have put incentives in place which guarantee the poor people they hire will attempt to pad the roles. They could easily prevent this. For example, by validating the registrations themselves and only paying for the valid ones. They are not allowed to validate or invalidate the registrations themselves. They are required, by law, to submit all of them. They are not allwed to make a determination as to what they think is valid, only what they think is suspicious. > [@](#): > > Or by requiring 3rd party witnesses. This is discriminatory, and ACORN has no authority to impose such a road block to a citizen registering to vote. > [@](#): > > Or even by spot-checking the registrations handed in and refusing to pay anything if any are found to be fraudulent. This is basically day labor. They aren’t going to be able to wait until months down the line to determine who deserves to be paid what. They also can’t hold every worker responsible for people who submit fraudulent regstrations without their knowledge. > [@](#): > > Yes, they’d still have to hand the fraudulent ones in, but the fact is that either through negligence, idiocy, or intention, ACORN has set up an incentive system for their vote registration drives which maximizes the possibility that workers will try to game the system. They have set up the system which is the most cost effective and timely, and which does not allow for any real chance of voting fraud. > [@](#): > > So keep your rolleyes to yourself. It’s not my problem if you’re refusing to look at the issue from any perspective other than the most simplistic one that bolsters your case. Irony. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-workers-caught-on-tape-apparently-advising-on-child-prostitution/509681/174 "2009-09-11T20:45:12Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > See my response to ElvisL1ves. Your are intentionally avoiding the larger point in order to stick to your script that portrays them as unwitting victims of the process. > > ACORN could take all sorts of steps to minimize the number of fraudulent registrations they accept in the first place. They refuse to do so. They know their policies increase the probability of fraudulent registrations being turned in, and they refuse to change them. Therefore, they are liable. There’s no reason to do so. Fraudulent registrations are little more than a paperwork nuisance. They don’t matter. They don’t lead to voter fraud. Any remedy would be worse than the disease. > [@](#): > > Furthermore, they appear to have a policy of turning in these registrations as late as possible Cite they they have such a policy? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-workers-caught-on-tape-apparently-advising-on-child-prostitution/509681/175 "2009-09-11T20:47:03Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Yes, I understand that. That claim is not at all consistent with your yammering about their “liability”. It’s all up there for anybody to read, you know. > [@](#): > > My point is that they have put incentives in place which guarantee the poor people they hire will attempt to pad the roles. They could easily prevent this. For example, by validating the registrations themselves Bzzt. No, you don’t understand how it works. Validation is an official government function. No private organization has that authority. > [@](#): > > ACORN has set up an incentive system for their vote registration drives which maximizes the possibility that workers will try to game the system. No, you don’t get it at all. Not, that is, unless you can cite something, anything, that shows there is a significant number of bogus filings and that ACORN is responsible for them. But of course you can’t, so let’s not bother even asking. > [@](#): > > It’s not my problem if you’re refusing to look at the issue from any perspective other than the most simplistic one that bolsters your case. Log, eye. :rolleyes: You’re manfully trying to support the RW-blog case you’ve swallowed whole that ACORN is an evil tool of the Democratic Party, but it just ain’t working, is it? But will you reconsider that case? Will you consider the possibility that your favorite “news” sources are misleading you? Will you consider the possibility that you just don’t quite know how things work in a foreign country as well as the people who live there do? Will you even stop just making up assertions as if they were fact? Of course not. Now go educate yourself before spouting off _just for damn once_, willya? ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-workers-caught-on-tape-apparently-advising-on-child-prostitution/509681/176 "2009-09-11T20:47:31Z")
If this group was closely associated with the Republicans, you can bet there would already be a half dozen Congressional investigations ongoing, computers seized, and funding cut off… ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-workers-caught-on-tape-apparently-advising-on-child-prostitution/509681/177 "2009-09-11T20:49:46Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I think there’s enough evidence here to warrant a further probe into ACORN’s practices. Really? Lay it all out for us, then, Counselor. Do a side-by-side listing of the evidence for a probe into Bush and Cheney authorizing torture too, if only for entertainment value. You’re welcome to make yourself look as foolish as you want there, of course. Your choice. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-workers-caught-on-tape-apparently-advising-on-child-prostitution/509681/178 "2009-09-11T20:50:11Z")
**Diogenes** and **Elvis** , when **Sam** is talking about validation by ACORN, he’s not talking about validation for purposes of registering voters or not, but for purposes of payment. As in, if a form for Batman comes along, flag it, refuse to pay for it, but send it along anyway as they’re legally required to do. I don’t know how well that would work, but your posts don’t seem to make that distinction. I do think that, unlike the topic of the OP, the fake registrations are endemic to ACORN. The nature of the reimbursement encourages it. Whether or not it’s a problem _worth worrying about_, however, is a different matter. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-workers-caught-on-tape-apparently-advising-on-child-prostitution/509681/179 "2009-09-11T20:54:12Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > **Diogenes** and **Elvis** , when **Sam** is talking about validation by ACORN, he’s not talking about validation for purposes of registering voters or not, but for purposes of payment. As in, if a form for Batman comes along, flag it, refuse to pay for it, but send it along anyway as they’re legally required to do. Let him say that himself, then. Along with some kind of cite for how that huge mass of crap is crippling the system, too. > [@](#): > > I don’t know how well that would work, but your posts don’t seem to make that distinction. Nor do his. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-workers-caught-on-tape-apparently-advising-on-child-prostitution/509681/180 "2009-09-11T21:00:20Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Let him say that himself, then. He did. > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > They could easily prevent this. For example, by validating the registrations themselves and only paying for the valid ones. Or by requiring 3rd party witnesses. Or even by spot-checking the registrations handed in and refusing to pay anything if any are found to be fraudulent. > > **Yes, they’d still have to hand the fraudulent ones in** , but the fact is that either through negligence, idiocy, or intention, ACORN has set up an incentive system for their vote registration drives which maximizes the possibility that workers will try to game the system. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-workers-caught-on-tape-apparently-advising-on-child-prostitution/509681.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acorn-workers-caught-on-tape-apparently-advising-on-child-prostitution/509681.md?page=10)