# Acquisition of British principality **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 20, 2008, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acquisition-of-british-principality/473649 "2008-11-20T15:02:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2008, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acquisition-of-british-principality/473649/1 "2008-11-20T15:02:22Z")
In my understanding of British royalty, one can become a prince or princess through birth or by marriage into the sovereign’s family, and probably also through adoption. There is also a special title, the Prince of Wales, which is traditionally granted to the monarch’s eldest son – currently Charles. However, Charles would still be a prince even if he were not Prince of Wales, owing to his mother being the soverign. I have a few questions: [ol] [li]Is there anything, apart from tradition and the threat of public or familial backlash, which prevents the sovereign from granting the title Prince of Wales to someone other than his or her eldest son? Could Elizabeth have given the title to another of her sons instead? Could she have given it to another male royal outside her immediate family? Could she have given it to a commoner, and if so, would it have formally elevated them to royalty?[/li][li]Is the sovereign free to create and hand out other princely titles? For example, could Elizabeth decide to create the title “Prince of Rutland” and give it to, say, Edward? (Or maybe to Eric Idle?) If not, who has the power to create and bestow such titles? Is an Act of Parliament required?[/li][li]Can the sovereign elevate someone to prince other than through marriage, birth, inheritance, or adoption, and without giving them a specific princely title like “Prince of Wales”? I suppose I’m asking if Elizabeth could, theoretically, hand out anonymous principalities the same way she currently hands out knighthoods.[/li][/ol] ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2008, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acquisition-of-british-principality/473649/2 "2008-11-20T15:22:56Z")
While we’re at it, let me also ask: Can the queen strip someone out of the line of succession? Say she takes a dislike to the Earl of Frogthroat (twenty-ninth in the line to succeed her), because he kicked one of her corgis during her Halloween party. Recognizing that it would be essentially symbolic, can she declare that he be passed over following her death? ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2008, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acquisition-of-british-principality/473649/3 "2008-11-20T15:36:31Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > While we’re at it, let me also ask: Can the queen strip someone out of the line of succession? Say she takes a dislike to the Earl of Frogthroat (twenty-ninth in the line to succeed her), because he kicked one of her corgis during her Halloween party. Recognizing that it would be essentially symbolic, can she declare that he be passed over following her death? Given that succession is governed by a act of Parliament, it would require an act of Parliament to take someone out, not an act of the monarch by herself. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2008, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acquisition-of-british-principality/473649/4 "2008-11-20T16:07:09Z")
My understanding is that although the monarch has nominal control over these things, as a practical matter, she can’t just create new titles and peerages willy-nilly without the approval of the government. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2008, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acquisition-of-british-principality/473649/5 "2008-11-20T16:18:00Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > My understanding is that although the monarch has nominal control over these things, as a practical matter, she can’t just create new titles and peerages willy-nilly without the approval of the government. There is that important convention. However, as a matter of formality, some things need to be done by an act of Parliament (which requires going through the procedures of the Houses of Commons and Lords), while others just require a royal decree or the like (which would be the monarch acting on the advice of her prime minister). ---
**Author:** ![WotNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e19b73/32.png) [@WotNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WotNot)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2008, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acquisition-of-british-principality/473649/6 "2008-11-20T16:18:42Z")
You know, **psychonaut,** this thread, along with [What happens when a queen marries a king?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=493858) sort of makes me glad you’re not in line for the throne – you’d be like a kid with a new toy: “So… what happens if I do… _this?_ Woah!” You’re not in line to the throne, right? Right? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2008, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acquisition-of-british-principality/473649/7 "2008-11-20T17:24:35Z")
> [@WotNot](#): > > You know, **psychonaut,** this thread, along with [What happens when a queen marries a king?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=493858) sort of makes me glad you’re not in line for the throne – you’d be like a kid with a new toy: “So… what happens if I do… _this?_ Woah!” > > You’re not in line to the throne, right? > > Right? I think we should at least warn the UK government not to allow the entire royal family to gather for a photograph… ---
**Author:** ![Cunctator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/43a26b/32.png) [@Cunctator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cunctator)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acquisition-of-british-principality/473649/8 "2008-11-21T00:08:59Z")
> [@psychonaut](#): > > Is there anything, apart from tradition and the threat of public or familial backlash, which prevents the sovereign from granting the title Prince of Wales to someone other than his or her eldest son? [The Queen’s website,](http://www.royal.gov.uk/output/Page5659.asp) which I’d take as fairly authoritative in this regard, states clearly that it can’t be done: > [@](#): > > The title ‘Prince of Wales’ may be possessed only by the eldest son of a Sovereign. although unfortunately there’s no explanation of whether it’s tradition/convention or legislation that prevents it. > [@psychonaut](#): > > I suppose I’m asking if Elizabeth could, theoretically, hand out anonymous principalities the same way she currently hands out knighthoods. In recent times the title Prince of the UK has been restricted to the sovereign’s sons, and their sons. But the Queen can grant the title to people who aren’t members of her immediate family. She created her husband, the Duke of Edinburgh, a Prince of the UK in 1957. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acquisition-of-british-principality/473649/9 "2008-11-21T00:22:00Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > I think we should at least warn the UK government not to allow the entire royal family to gather for a photograph… Ah, you refer to the King Ralph debacle. Sorry mess that. ---
**Author:** ![Oswald\_Bastable](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oswald_bastable/32/214_2.png) [@Oswald\_Bastable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oswald_Bastable)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acquisition-of-british-principality/473649/10 "2008-11-21T12:04:29Z")
> [@Cunctator](#): > > But the Queen can grant the title to people who aren’t members of her immediate family. She created her husband, the Duke of Edinburgh, a Prince of the UK in 1957. At which time I believe he was a member of her immediate family, by virture of being married to her. OB ---
**Author:** ![Oswald\_Bastable](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oswald_bastable/32/214_2.png) [@Oswald\_Bastable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oswald_Bastable)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acquisition-of-british-principality/473649/11 "2008-11-21T12:15:40Z")
Too late to edit, so… I’m not certain how the Prince of the UK title is given - as Prince Michael of Kent is, I believe, the only royal outside of the Queen’s immediate family (he’s her first cousin) to hold the title. He holds it by virtue of being the grandchild of a monarch (George V), but I note that Princess Margaret’s children (also grandchildren of a monarch) do not hold princely titles, but Prince Andrew’s off spring do. OB ---
**Author:** ![Caught\_Work](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/919ad9/32.png) [@Caught\_Work](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caught_Work)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acquisition-of-british-principality/473649/12 "2008-11-21T12:50:40Z")
Royal titles are only passed down from the father (or the monarch I expect), so as Margaret was the mother, her children Viscount Linley and Lady Sarah Armstrong-Jones do not bear the title of Prince and Princess. ---
**Author:** ![Szlater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Szlater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Szlater)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acquisition-of-british-principality/473649/13 "2008-11-21T13:20:47Z")
> [@Oswald\_Bastable](#): > > but I note that Princess Margaret’s children (also grandchildren of a monarch) do not hold princely titles, but Prince Andrew’s off spring do. > > OB I believe that Royal titles (Prince and Princess) pass only from the father, so Princess Margaret’s children (Viscount Linley and Lady Sarah Armstrong-Jones) and Princess Anne’s children (Peter and Zara Phillips) do not hold them even though Peter Phillips is eleventh in line to the Throne. Princess Anne also refused offers of titles or styles for Peter and Zara when they were children, so no other title (Viscount or Lady). ETA: What Caught@Work said… I didn’t see that post before I posted. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acquisition-of-british-principality/473649/14 "2008-11-21T13:32:01Z")
[Nitpick] Wouldn’t the term “principality” more correctly apply to a realm ruled by a prince, not to the title itself? ---
**Author:** ![Cunctator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/43a26b/32.png) [@Cunctator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cunctator)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acquisition-of-british-principality/473649/15 "2008-11-22T02:45:03Z")
> [@Oswald\_Bastable](#): > > At which time I believe he was a member of her immediate family, by virture of being married to her. Not a close blood relative though. They’re third cousins. If she can make her distant cousin husband a Prince of the UK, theoretically I think she could so the same for any other commoner. Not that she’s likely to, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acquisition-of-british-principality/473649/16 "2008-11-22T03:05:21Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > [Nitpick] > > Wouldn’t the term “principality” more correctly apply to a realm ruled by a prince, not to the title itself? That’s how I’ve always understood it. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acquisition-of-british-principality/473649/17 "2008-11-22T03:49:28Z")
If the sovereign’s eldest son dies, but leaves behind a son of his own the sovereign can make his granson Prince of Wales (but not Duke of Cornwall, etc). George III’s father, Frederick, died and the future George III was made Prince of Wales by his grandfather (George II). ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2008, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acquisition-of-british-principality/473649/18 "2008-11-24T14:59:38Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > [Nitpick] > > Wouldn’t the term “principality” more correctly apply to a realm ruled by a prince, not to the title itself? Nope. It can also mean, for example, “the state, office, or authority of a prince”. In fact, that’s the primary definition for the word as given by Merriam–Webster. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2008, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acquisition-of-british-principality/473649/19 "2008-11-24T15:14:09Z")
> [@psychonaut](#): > > Nope. It can also mean, for example, “the state, office, or authority of a prince”. In fact, that’s the primary definition for the word as given by Merriam–Webster. Not to mention an order of angel (in line with the angel, archangel, cherubim and seraphim, there are principalities, powers, thrones, dominions and virtues. ---
**Author:** ![Vaderesque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/e274bd/32.png) [@Vaderesque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vaderesque)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2008, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acquisition-of-british-principality/473649/20 "2008-11-24T15:16:43Z")
> [@psychonaut](#): > > Nope. It can also mean, for example, “the state, office, or authority of a prince”. In fact, that’s the primary definition for the word as given by Merriam–Webster. I have just coined the term ‘princiness’ to get around this confusion. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acquisition-of-british-principality/473649.md?page=2)