# "Acting white" damage control **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 11, 2007, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acting-white-damage-control/403691 "2007-05-11T14:31:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acting-white-damage-control/403691/81 "2007-05-11T22:40:22Z")
> [@](#): > > this is “acting white,” then in your book, or at least an example of it? Whole Bean, I cannot answer for Pizzabrat, because I sure as hell don’t agree with her/him, (sorry, I don’t know which) on some serious topics. But I do notice a bit of projecting going on here. The things she mentioned was not ‘acting white’ _in my book_, but in my culture, there were very, very many who did consider a certain style as ‘acting white.’ The myth comes into play when people (both white and black) begin to spout off in the media that this ‘acting white’ thing was about academic success. It was not. I never, ever knew any black, no matter how hard core, ghetto, cool, hip-hoppy, whatever, to put down someone as ‘acting white’ just because they were smart. That didn’t happen! I think the fact that this myth persists is not good for the black community. It is harder to win the respect we deserve from our fellow man when our fellow man is taught that we don’t respect ourselves enough to value education. ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acting-white-damage-control/403691/82 "2007-05-11T22:46:50Z")
[QUOTE=Nzinga, Seated] Whole Bean, I cannot answer for Pizzabrat, because I sure as hell don’t agree with her/him, (sorry, I don’t know which)… [/QUOTE] I guess my new location line doesn’t work… ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acting-white-damage-control/403691/83 "2007-05-11T22:49:28Z")
[QUOTE=Hippy Hollow] And of course, I can reflect on my years in the classroom. What was the one thing that once said would start a fight in my school, a 99% African American, 100% free lunch school? It wasn’t insults about someone’s family, or cracks about the clothes students wore. It was calling another student “stupid.” Kids would actually insult each other by bringing up low grades. That’s part of the reason it was so hard to get students to read aloud - the struggling readers were afraid of being insulted if their peers heard them reading poorly. [/QUOTE] And this is why anecdotal evidence is always of limited value: I went to a 90+% minority high school, where I heard it used explicitly in the way Ogbu describes. I recall it quite clearly, because it was so strange to me (having come from a 90+% white middle school). The guy I heard it most often applied to was someone who was not a dork in any usual sense (starting football player, was popular), nor was he prone to dropping polysyllables. But he routinely got near-perfect grades, and he was routinely teased for it. It was mostly good-natured … but he was also obviously uncomfortable with it, and (being at that age where peer acceptance is so important) I always felt sorry for him. As a teacher, I have students tell me that it was unfair to base a large portion of a grade on class participation, because it is “white” to volunteer one’s thoughts in class discussion. It may well be that the phenomena is less common than some have said; but is the sort of issue on which it is ridiculous to issue blanket statements, whether “All black kids face this pressure” or “it is a myth, pure and simple.” ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acting-white-damage-control/403691/84 "2007-05-11T22:56:03Z")
> [@](#): > > I guess my new location line doesn’t work… Damnit! Sorry. I will remember in the future. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acting-white-damage-control/403691/85 "2007-05-11T22:57:10Z")
[QUOTE=pizzabrat] Then what’s the point switching styles in the first place? [/QUOTE] Because speaking like others speak makes communication more efficient. When in Rome and all of that. I mean, you could just as easily say that using a certain style around white people is “dumbing things down”, too. But you’re not saying that for some reason. ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acting-white-damage-control/403691/86 "2007-05-11T22:59:35Z")
[QUOTE=furt] And this is why anecdotal evidence is always of limited value: I went to a 90+% minority high school, where I heard it used explicitly in the way Ogbu describes. I recall it quite clearly, because it was so strange to me (having come from a 90+% white middle school). The guy I heard it most often applied to was someone who was not a dork in any usual sense (starting football player, was popular), nor was he prone to dropping polysyllables. But he routinely got near-perfect grades, and he was routinely teased for it. It was mostly good-natured … but he was also obviously uncomfortable with it, and (being at that age where peer acceptance is so important) I always felt sorry for him. [/QUOTE] Really? This was a black student being called “white” by other black students solely because of his grades? How did you know that that’s what was going on (and how did they know his grades?)? > [@](#): > > As a teacher, I have students tell me that it was unfair to base a large portion of a grade on class participation, because it is “white” to volunteer one’s thoughts in class discussion. Exactly what I addressed already in my OP. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acting-white-damage-control/403691/87 "2007-05-11T23:02:03Z")
One of the realities of life is that we are judged by the way we present ourselves to others. If someone wants to be financially successful in our society, one of the prices of admission is to be able to communicate in such a way that they will be taken seriously. And “where you at, homey?” won’t cut it. It seems to me that some people resent this fact and have created a backlash toward proper spoken and written english in response. Whether it is in the spirit of rebellion or an effort to preserve self-esteem, some people seem to be almost belligerently incorrect. Proper spelling and enunciation is frowned upon. The problem with this attitude is that it says “I hereby volunteer to limit my personal and financial success”…otherwise known as “keepin’ it real, yo.” ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acting-white-damage-control/403691/88 "2007-05-11T23:03:35Z")
[QUOTE=you with the face] Because speaking like others speak makes communication more efficient. When in Rome and all of that. I mean, you could just as easily say that using a certain style around white people is “dumbing things down”, too. But you’re not saying that for some reason. [/QUOTE] Because Hippy Hollow explained his practice with this: > [@](#): > > But to use the phrase that so many Black ministers use, there’s a real need to “make it plain” when talking to Black folks. Which implies “dumbing down” more than it does using terms and rhetoric that would be unfamiliar to a white audience. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acting-white-damage-control/403691/89 "2007-05-11T23:04:56Z")
[QUOTE=you with the face] I mean, you could just as easily say that using a certain style around white people is “dumbing things down”, too. But you’re not saying that for some reason. [/QUOTE] It depends on which white people. I think the line of demarcation is socio-economic, not skin color. If you listen to a bunch of white clowns in baggy pants and sideways baseball hats, chances are they will not be using proper english. And by doing so, they are also making the same choice to limit their future. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acting-white-damage-control/403691/90 "2007-05-11T23:05:24Z")
[QUOTE=Evil One] One of the realities of life is that we are judged by the way we present ourselves to others. If someone wants to be financially successful in our society, one of the prices of admission is to be able to communicate in such a way that they will be taken seriously. And “where you at, homey?” won’t cut it. It seems to me that some people resent this fact and have created a backlash toward proper spoken and written english in response. Whether it is in the spirit of rebellion or an effort to preserve self-esteem, some people seem to be almost belligerently incorrect. Proper spelling and enunciation is frowned upon. The problem with this attitude is that it says “I hereby volunteer to limit my personal and financial success”…otherwise known as “keepin’ it real, yo.” [/QUOTE] You imply that black people are the only ones who speak slang…or that when we talk about “black English”, we are talking ONLY about slang. We aren’t. Like **Hippy** , I code-switch between AAVE and standard. And never in my life have I called anyone “homey” or said “keepin’ it real, yo”. ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acting-white-damage-control/403691/91 "2007-05-11T23:10:32Z")
[QUOTE=pizzabrat] An example - I don’t use “acting white” in my book.. [/QUOTE] By in “your book” I meant in your opinion/estimation/by your definition of “acting white.” I did not mean that you employed the idiom. I doubt that this wasn’t clear. That an authoritarian political ideology (generally tied to a mass movement) that considers individual and other societal interests inferior to the needs of the state is facism “in my book” does not make me a facsist. Like, I said, I doubt this wasn’t clear. So my question remains, now reworded, does “using a large vocabulary with a prestige dialect, or at least no strong regional accent . . . wearing clothes that fit with subtle colors and design” consitute “acting white,” as that term is employed, and as you have designated yourself the interprepter of how it is employed? [QUOTE=pizzabrat] Mmm… I don’t know, “displaying the characteristics of being well educated” feels more precise, for some reason. Of course not. [/QUOTE] More precise for the message you inferred, but not the one I meant. “Acting” is what I meant. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acting-white-damage-control/403691/92 "2007-05-11T23:12:44Z")
[QUOTE=pizzabrat] Because Hippy Hollow explained his practice with this: Which implies “dumbing down” more than it does using terms and rhetoric that would be unfamiliar to a white audience. [/QUOTE] I’ll leave it to him to explain what he means by “making it plain”. I just took issue with your likening code switching to dumbing one’s speech down. They are not the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acting-white-damage-control/403691/93 "2007-05-11T23:16:13Z")
> [@](#): > > It may well be that the phenomena is less common than some have said; but is the sort of issue on which it is ridiculous to issue blanket statements, whether “All black kids face this pressure” or "it is a myth, pure and simple Oh, I stand by that statement. I will be the first to admit that every race on the planet may have some children that tease others for being smart. But the myth that I speak of is the one that claims that this is a bigger issue with the black community. I assure you, that is just not the case. > [@](#): > > It was mostly good-natured Yeah? Most likely then, it did not fall under the media myth that I am familiar with. Because they claim that blacks are more likely to put eachother down for being smart…and they don’t mean ‘good naturedly’. The fact is, there is a misconception that blacks don’t value education and that we consider it a ‘white’ thing. I promise you that I have never met a single black person in my life that accuses someone of acting white because they are smart. I really do feel it is vital that we crush this misconception. ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acting-white-damage-control/403691/94 "2007-05-11T23:18:57Z")
[QUOTE=monstro] You imply that black people are the only ones who speak slang…or that when we talk about “black English”, we are talking ONLY about slang. We aren’t. Like **Hippy** , I code-switch between AAVE and standard. And never in my life have I called anyone “homey” or said “keepin’ it real, yo”. [/QUOTE] Actually, I don’t think we’re talking about code swtichers. Most code switchers are actively avoiding trouble. In my estimation, many likely to levy the “acting white” insult, never switch. They are ghettto 24-7. But, you are very right. Many, if not most professionals (white or black), code switch and use slang. In an ironic way, I address my pals on the phone “'s’up homey,” or say to my wife “what’s crappenin.” I wouldn’t speak this way to my boss. ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acting-white-damage-control/403691/95 "2007-05-11T23:21:28Z")
[QUOTE=Nzinga, Seated] Oh, I stand by that statement. I will be the first to admit that every race on the planet may have some children that tease others for being smart. But the myth that I speak of is the one that claims that this is a bigger issue with the black community. I assure you, that is just not the case. Yeah? Most likely then, it did not fall under the media myth that I am familiar with. Because they claim that blacks are more likely to put eachother down for being smart…and they don’t mean ‘good naturedly’. The fact is, there is a misconception that blacks don’t value education and that we consider it a ‘white’ thing. I promise you that I have never met a single black person in my life that accuses someone of acting white because they are smart. I really do feel it is vital that we crush this misconception. [/QUOTE] I must admit that this thread has been truly educational for me. Thanks to all for the comments. ---
**Author:** ![Hippy\_Hollow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hippy_hollow/32/4841_2.png) [@Hippy\_Hollow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hippy_Hollow)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acting-white-damage-control/403691/96 "2007-05-11T23:27:33Z")
[QUOTE=furt] And this is why anecdotal evidence is always of limited value: I went to a 90+% minority high school, where I heard it used explicitly in the way Ogbu describes. I recall it quite clearly, because it was so strange to me (having come from a 90+% white middle school). The guy I heard it most often applied to was someone who was not a dork in any usual sense (starting football player, was popular), nor was he prone to dropping polysyllables. But he routinely got near-perfect grades, and he was routinely teased for it. It was mostly good-natured … but he was also obviously uncomfortable with it, and (being at that age where peer acceptance is so important) I always felt sorry for him. [/quote] Which I why I supplemented my own experience with more recent studies from Perry, Hilliard, etc. I’ve been accused of “acting White,” as well. But I can see that there were several contributing factors: [ul] [li]Unfamiliar with most American slang, AAVE[/li][li]talking in a fairly nasal tone[/li][li]speaking fast[/li][li]being terribly fashion unconscious[/li][li]being close to teachers[/li][li]not being terribly social (actually, I was a little afraid of a lot of the Black kids at my school[/li][/ul] That was me at 14. By 17, most of these factors had changed (sorry, still talk fast). So again, I wasn’t the downest brother, but definitely part of the clique. > [@](#): > > As a teacher, I have students tell me that it was unfair to base a large portion of a grade on class participation, because it is “white” to volunteer one’s thoughts in class discussion. This is where I go upside the collective heads of the knuckleheads who vocalize such foolishness. Frederick Douglass would have spoken in class. Sojourner Truth, Fannie Lou Hamer, Barbara Jordan, Martin Luther King, Jr., and so on would have spoken in class. The hell? > [@](#): > > It may well be that the phenomena is less common than some have said; but is the sort of issue on which it is ridiculous to issue blanket statements, whether “All black kids face this pressure” or “it is a myth, pure and simple.” I think you have to think a little more why folks are vociferous about this issue. Historians like James Anderson and Amilcar Shabazz can provide copious evidence of the struggles that Black Americans endured in the name of education. There is a very strong legacy of the elevation of education in Black communities. Vanessa Siddle Walker talks about the strengths of Black schools before integration - the assumption that fewer resources equals a lesser education does not necessarily hold. There are so many explanations for Black student underperformance that doesn’t put the blame on the kids. Low expectations by teachers - both Black and White teachers - is an explanation that Ray Rist has studied. Cultural relevance and respect has been explored by Gloria Ladson-Billings and Lisa Delpit. And what we’re seeing from many posters in this thread, which is supported by sociologists like Prudence Carter, is that “acting White” has less to do with academic success than a way of carrying oneself - students labeled thusly are being accused of adopting majority culture ways of speech, fashion, tastes, at the expense of their own cultural heritage. Now is that always fair and accurate? No. I can speak from personal experience that it bothered me when Black people assumed because I sounded different that I was somehow suspect. But I did notice that when I got to know more Black kids, I got a lot of respect for doing well in school. But always, crap about being nerdy… as I got from Latino and Asian friends. (White friends, not so much. Probably because they were nerdier.) ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acting-white-damage-control/403691/97 "2007-05-11T23:30:00Z")
I did want to squeeze in on the issue of switching styles. It doesn’t mean that we speak, “better” English when we aren’t in our own little circles. (although it is totally natural to loosen up some of the grammar rules when in informal company). It just means that we don’t bring the same brand of slang and style that we bring with eachother. White people have no problem with ‘gonna’. They say that all the time. No big deal. But if a black person says, ‘finna’, as in “I am finna\* go to the store”, that is a style that doesn’t fly well on the phone with a customer at work. I switch styles all the time. At work, I know I can say, “Tell you what I’m gonna do, Thomas…I’m gonna waive that restocking fee for you, alrighty?”, but it is not considered ‘professional’ to use “I’m finna dead that fee for you, alright, Sun?” See…I didn’t use ‘proper’ English when I spoke the ‘professional’ way. Proper English has little to do with style switching. - Yes, as a matter of fact, I do use the word, “finna” amongst my friends. My mother is from Virginia darnit, so don’t judge me. ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acting-white-damage-control/403691/98 "2007-05-11T23:35:07Z")
[QUOTE=whole bean] By in “your book” I meant in your opinion/estimation/by your definition of “acting white.” I did not mean that you employed the idiom. I doubt that this wasn’t clear. [/QUOTE] Ok - just being clear. And by “an example”, I meant yes. ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acting-white-damage-control/403691/99 "2007-05-11T23:37:37Z")
[QUOTE=Nzinga, Seated] - Yes, as a matter of fact, I do use the word, “finna” amongst my friends. My mother is from Virginia darnit, so don’t judge me. [/QUOTE] s’cool, dude, I use the southern white version “ficksin’ to.” My Wife: You mow the yard, yet? Me: Noooo, I’m ficksin to though . . . a’ight? ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acting-white-damage-control/403691/100 "2007-05-11T23:38:11Z")
[QUOTE=Nzinga, Seated] - Yes, as a matter of fact, I do use the word, “finna” amongst my friends. My mother is from Virginia darnit, so don’t judge me. [/quote] I say “finna” and “fixin”. When I’m getting really carried away, I say “fitna”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acting-white-damage-control/403691.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acting-white-damage-control/403691.md?page=6)