# Action movies with intelligent heroes **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 30, 2004, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/action-movies-with-intelligent-heroes/252892 "2004-06-30T15:08:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/action-movies-with-intelligent-heroes/252892/1 "2004-06-30T15:08:40Z")
It seems to me that Hollywood action movies are much more likely to have an intelligent, cultured, sophisticated villain than a ditto hero. The villain is prancing around quoting poets, playwrights and philosophers, while the hero, though certainly not dumb, is more cunning than intelligent. The villain is played by Jeremy Irons or Kenneth Branagh and the hero is played by Bruce Willis or Sylvester Stallone. The only exception I can think of is _Con Air_, where John Cusack is a walking thesaurus who quotes Dostoyevsky and has a dispute with a guy who replies to a Dostoyevsky quote with “fuck you”, and even that movie has Nicholas Cage as the main hero, a hard-kicking fast-shooting guy that certainly doesn’t quote Dostoyevsky. Maybe it’s not intelligence per se, but culture and sophistication. Doesn’t matter, what I’m looking for are these exceptions. Are there Hollywood action movies where the hero knows his Shakespeare and the villain is down-to-Earth and uneducated? Movies where the villain is a tornado or an asteroid don’t count. ---
**Author:** ![ElectricZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/58f4c7/32.png) [@ElectricZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElectricZ)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/action-movies-with-intelligent-heroes/252892/2 "2004-06-30T15:41:24Z")
That’s a really good question, and the only examples I can think of are James Bond and Jack Ryan. Spy movies are probably your best bet, because secret agents are SUPPOSED to be smart. But for the most part what you say is true. Action movies have villains with backgrounds full of status and education because it makes it more satisfying when the palooka with streets smarts takes him down. It’s a broad generalization, but action movie fans relish when a poetry spouting, history touting, suit wearing snob has his blimp-like ego deflated by a guy who drinks beer and watches football in between battles with evil/attempts to get the girl. Action movies are aimed squarely at Joe Sixpack, and he certainly prefers his hero wearing T-shirts and leather jackets rather than Armani suits and Gucci loafers. I did just think of another example, but it’s another spy movie – Arnold Schwarzenegger in “True Lies.” EZ ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/action-movies-with-intelligent-heroes/252892/3 "2004-06-30T15:50:42Z")
It depends upon your definition of “action movie” and how much evidence you have that the hero or villain are educated. My all-time favorite thriller is Fred Zinneman’s **Day of the Jackal** , in which both hero (Claude Lebel) and Villain (The Jackal) are obviously clever and sophisticated, but no oner quotes Shakespeare. Sean Connery’s character in **the Name of the Rose** is educated, but is it an action movie? Sherlock Holmes quotes Goethe in the original German (among a great many other things). Likewise, Nero Wolfe is supposed to be a genius (and even the self-deprtecating Archie Goodwin quotes quite a few obscure authors), so they ought to qualify. Val Kilmer’s **Saint**? Roger Moore’s **ffolkes**? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/action-movies-with-intelligent-heroes/252892/4 "2004-06-30T15:57:27Z")
Not a movie, but a couple of TV series, both from England John Steed and Emma Peel from the Avengers were both well educated and cultured and had no problem being such Although he didn’t flaunt it, Patrick McGoohan’s secret agent in Secret Agent Man was clearly well educated. From the U.S. James Garner’s reluctant lawmen in “Support Your Local Sheriff” and “Support Your Local Gunfighter” were both intelligent and much better educated than the goons they faced. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/action-movies-with-intelligent-heroes/252892/5 "2004-06-30T16:17:18Z")
There are the agent movies, that’s true, but even in them, the villain is educated. Aren’t there any Hollywood action movies with an educated, sophisticated hero and a beer-swilling, belching, Super Bowl-watching villain? Is it impossible to make a villain like that scary and/or believable enough? _The Name of the Rose_ I wouldn’t classify as an action movie by any stretch of the word. Detectives like Holmes are obviously intelligent, it’s in the job description. It’s been a while since I watched _The Saint_ and I don’t even remember who the villain was. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/action-movies-with-intelligent-heroes/252892/6 "2004-06-30T16:23:56Z")
Does Raiders of the Lost Ark count as an “action” movie? Because Indiana Jones is pretty smart and well educated. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/action-movies-with-intelligent-heroes/252892/7 "2004-06-30T16:24:41Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > James Garner’s reluctant lawmen in “Support Your Local Sheriff” and “Support Your Local Gunfighter” were both intelligent and much better educated than the goons they faced. Those I haven’t seen, but I can imagine it working really well in westerns. In fact, now that I think about it, there’s _Tombstone_. Johnny Ringo is an educated villain (see? It never ends!) but the rest of the bad guys are all simple folk, while the heroes talk well, read books and philosophize about life. Val Kilmer’s Doc Holliday is a doctor, speaks the Queen’s English and knows Latin. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/action-movies-with-intelligent-heroes/252892/8 "2004-06-30T16:25:25Z")
The first example I could think of was actually from TV. The Wild Wild West (I’m talking about the TV series, not the movie here) had your standard issue, talk-with-your-gun hero, but the _sidekick_ was cultured and sophisticated, in addition to being able to invent just about anything on the spot. And of course, depending on the script and the director, Batman swings wildly between being a sophisticated intelligent hero who happens to fight weird criminals, and a dark, brooding near-psycopath. I’ll give him half a point. Of course, either way, he has to be prepared. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/action-movies-with-intelligent-heroes/252892/9 "2004-06-30T16:30:56Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > Does Raiders of the Lost Ark count as an “action” movie? Because Indiana Jones is pretty smart and well educated. Yes, but so are his enemies, especially Belloq. This is an interesting case, actually, because while Indy certainly is smart and well-educated, he acts (in my opinion) like the average action hero once he’s out of his suit and into his Stetson. Remember when Indy thinks Marion is dead, so he sits in a bar getting drunk when Belloq sits down next to him? Belloq is all refined, while Indy hisses insults between clenched teeth, much like Bruce Willis would to the European-sophisticated-villain-of-the-week. ---
**Author:** ![gonzoron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a6a055/32.png) [@gonzoron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzoron)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/action-movies-with-intelligent-heroes/252892/10 "2004-06-30T16:34:43Z")
If you’re including TV, there’s **MacGyver** ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/action-movies-with-intelligent-heroes/252892/11 "2004-06-30T17:12:38Z")
Peckinpah’s _Straw Dogs_ is an unconventional action movie with Dustin Hoffman as an unconventional lead (though one might hesitate in calling him a “hero”). ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/action-movies-with-intelligent-heroes/252892/12 "2004-06-30T17:28:05Z")
> [@Priceguy](#): > > Aren’t there any Hollywood action movies with an educated, sophisticated hero and a beer-swilling, belching, Super Bowl-watching villain? Is it impossible to make a villain like that scary and/or believable enough? Such a villian would be no match for the smarter hero, who’d have him outsmarted and caught inside ten minutes. What do you do with the other 90? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/action-movies-with-intelligent-heroes/252892/13 "2004-06-30T17:46:22Z")
How about _Die Hard: With a Vengeance_? Bruce Willis was his usual Bruce Willis self, but Zeus kicked butt by virtue of his brain. I’m not sure I’d call him “sophisticated” or “cultured”, but there’s no doubt that he was smart and educated. And again, not the main hero (for this movie, at least), but Odysseus should count. He was the favorite of Athena, and it was his cunning plan (not his also respectable strength of arm) which won the Greeks the war. And when he heard the Sirens’ call, they tempted him not with sex (as one generally supposes), but with that which he desires most, knowledge. ---
**Author:** ![Papermache\_Prince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f05b48/32.png) [@Papermache\_Prince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Papermache_Prince)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/action-movies-with-intelligent-heroes/252892/14 "2004-06-30T18:03:45Z")
Clark ‘Doc’ Savage, Jr. was no slouch in the intellectual area. See [Doc Savage: The Man of Bronze](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0072886/). Then there’s Buckaroo Bonzai ([The Adventures of Buckaroo Banzai Across the 8th Dimension](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0086856/)) as well. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/action-movies-with-intelligent-heroes/252892/15 "2004-06-30T18:35:58Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > How about _Die Hard: With a Vengeance_? Bruce Willis was his usual Bruce Willis self, but Zeus kicked butt by virtue of his brain. I’m not sure I’d call him “sophisticated” or “cultured”, but there’s no doubt that he was smart and educated. Smart, yes. Educated? I don’t think so. I think the _Die Hard_ movies are posterchildren for the kind of movie I’m talking about, although the third one less than most. It’s all European intelligent supervillains speaking British English with an accent, versus All-American redblooded foulmouthed Bruce Willis. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/action-movies-with-intelligent-heroes/252892/16 "2004-06-30T18:37:21Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > Such a villian would be no match for the smarter hero, who’d have him outsmarted and caught inside ten minutes. What do you do with the other 90? Then how come heroes beat educated villains all the time? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Mr.B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.B)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/action-movies-with-intelligent-heroes/252892/17 "2004-06-30T18:45:35Z")
Bruce Wayne is cultured and refined, while many of his enemies are, if not always stupid, usually very far from cultured. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/action-movies-with-intelligent-heroes/252892/18 "2004-06-30T18:55:09Z")
Really? I haven’t seen many John Wayne movies, but the ones I have, seem to, according to my flawed memory, fit into this mold pretty well: U.S. serviceman John Wayne against evil German Goethe-quoting officer. ---
**Author:** ![Wolfian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/7ea924/32.png) [@Wolfian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolfian)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/action-movies-with-intelligent-heroes/252892/19 "2004-06-30T18:59:43Z")
Well if we’re including superhero movies how about Professor X and Peter Parker. Granted, the latter isn’t a genius, but he does have a good head on his shoulders and is full of quips. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/action-movies-with-intelligent-heroes/252892/20 "2004-06-30T19:02:16Z")
Both of those have intelligent, educated foes. I really should have named this thread “Action movies with intelligent heroes _and stupid villains_”. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/action-movies-with-intelligent-heroes/252892.md?page=2)