# Action movies with intelligent heroes **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 30, 2004, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/action-movies-with-intelligent-heroes/252892 "2004-06-30T15:08:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2004, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/action-movies-with-intelligent-heroes/252892/41 "2004-07-01T04:08:36Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > John Steed and Emma Peel from the Avengers were both well educated and cultured and had no problem being such. Mmmm… Emma Peel… ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2004, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/action-movies-with-intelligent-heroes/252892/42 "2004-07-01T04:10:20Z")
> [@Mr. B](#): > > Bruce Wayne is cultured and refined, while many of his enemies are, if not always stupid, usually very far from cultured. That certainly helps with his preparatory skills, does it not? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2004, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/action-movies-with-intelligent-heroes/252892/43 "2004-07-01T04:35:31Z")
I just thought of another one: Neo from _The Matrix_ is obviously supposed to be very intelligent, despite any failings of Keanu Reeves in portraying that. For that matter, Trinity and Morpheus were smart, too. But I suppose it’s very arguable that the Machines were still smarter than any of them. ---
**Author:** ![chukhung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e79b87/32.png) [@chukhung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chukhung)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2004, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/action-movies-with-intelligent-heroes/252892/44 "2004-07-01T05:25:49Z")
How about Private Joker from _[Full Metal Jacket](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0093058/)_? > [@](#): > > **Colonel:** You write “Born to Kill” on your helmet and you wear a peace button. What’s that supposed to be, some kind of sick joke? > > **Joker:** No, sir. > > **Colonel:** You’d better get your head and your ass wired together, or I will take a giant shit on you. > > \*\*Joker: \*\*Yes, sir. > > **Colonel:** Now answer my question or you’ll be standing tall before the man. > > **Joker:** I think I was trying to suggest something about the duality of man, sir. > > **Colonel:** The what?! > > **Joker:** The duality of man. The Jungian thing, sir. Of course, _Full Metal Jacket_ is a movie where it’s tricky deciding who exactly the “villian” is. I’m not sure if it meets the requirements of the OP. ---
**Author:** ![HPL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3da27b/32.png) [@HPL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HPL)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2004, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/action-movies-with-intelligent-heroes/252892/45 "2004-07-01T05:27:30Z")
In Star Trek 2, Kirk may have been a boy from Iowa and Khan a genetic superman who was supposed to be very intelligent, but Kirk was able to outsmart Khan on several occasions. His only real mistake was being taken by suprise during the intial encounter with reliant. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2004, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/action-movies-with-intelligent-heroes/252892/46 "2004-07-01T06:58:53Z")
> [@ArchiveGuy](#): > > Nobody brought up John Wayne until you did with your rebuttal. And you started the post with “Really?”, implying a response to the previous poster, Mr. B, who brought up Bruce Wayne but never mentioned the Duke. Huh. How did I miss that even on the re-read? ---
**Author:** ![jinty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/dbc845/32.png) [@jinty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jinty)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2004, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/action-movies-with-intelligent-heroes/252892/47 "2004-07-01T12:55:42Z")
Ooh, I like this thread. It’s as much fun trying to think why movies do this (everyone likes to see a smart-aleck get his comeuppance? more fun to see the underdog win? unconscious anti-intellectualism in Hollywood?) as it is to think of good counter-examples… How about **Richard Dreyfuss** ’s character in Jaws? I know he was only one of the 3 main characters but he was educated & had a helluva good tiff with Robert Shaw’s hard-drinking tough-guy character. **Martin Sheen** in Apocalypse Now? **Ed Norton** in Fight Club? Narrator: Tyler, you are by far the most interesting single-serving friend I’ve ever met… see I have this thing: everything on a plane is single-serving… Tyler Durden: Oh I get it, it’s very clever. Narrator: Thank you. Tyler Durden: How’s that working out for you? Narrator: What? Tyler Durden: Being clever. Narrator: Great. Tyler Durden: Keep it up then… Right up. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2004, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/action-movies-with-intelligent-heroes/252892/48 "2004-07-01T14:16:57Z")
> [@HPL](#): > > In Star Trek 2, Kirk may have been a boy from Iowa and Khan a genetic superman who was supposed to be very intelligent, but Kirk was able to outsmart Khan on several occasions. His only real mistake was being taken by suprise during the intial encounter with reliant. Let’s not forget that in the TV episode that originally introduced Khan (“Space Seed”), Khan referenced Milton, but it was Kirk who knew the passage. And re: Nick Charles from the Thin Man. Does he really count in the category of “action movie hero?” Because if he does, I have to nominate Charlie Chan. ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2004, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/action-movies-with-intelligent-heroes/252892/49 "2004-07-01T17:27:50Z")
Ack, yes, of course, Christopher **Lloyd**. Thanks, **msmith537**. I did know that! :smack: Despite his famous “Khan” monologue\*, I wouldn’t call Kirk a completely uncultured oaf: he quoted DH Lawrence, for instance, was seen reading Dickens, and occasionally popped off with the literary reference (“I’m a great one for rushing in where angels fear to tread”). “Tonight for my audition I’m going to be reading the ‘Khan’ monologue from Star Trek II, and I’ll be reading ‘Chewbacca’ in ‘A New Hope.’ I’ll be reading Chewbacca first.” ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2004, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/action-movies-with-intelligent-heroes/252892/50 "2004-07-01T17:45:26Z")
I think people are confusing a couple of things here. There’s a diference between being “intelligent” and “educated” and being “intellectual”. For example, Indiana Jones is obviously educated and smart. Crighton from Farscape is educated and smart (although his companions think he’s a moron) by Earth standards. But neither are very “intellectual”. They don’t speak with “prestige” accents (English, French, German). They aren’t high ranking military commanders or businessmen. They were not raised in high society. They are regular guys who happen to also be very smart in their field. It’s a lot diferent than being a smug, condescending know-it-all (think Ivan Rickman in Die Hard). ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2004, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/action-movies-with-intelligent-heroes/252892/51 "2004-07-01T18:06:21Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > In the novels, it’s made clear that Spenser is basically a tough guy though a very smart one. In fact, it’s his native intelligence combined with willingness to use lethal force that makes him a successful tough guy. His feeling for poetry he got second-hand from his English professor girlfriend. No. Wrong, wrong, wrong. First, Susan Silverman is not an English professor. When he meets her (_God Save the Child_) she’s a high school guidance counselor. As the series progresses, she earns her doctorate in psychchology and embarks on a career as a therapist. She sometimes recognizes Spenser’s quotations, but often not. Secondly, Spenser’s love for literature vastly pre-dates his acquaintance with Susan. In _Backstory_, Spenser tells Paul and Susan about a high-school love of his, and how he used to send her notes in which he’d quote poetry. - Rick ---
**Author:** ![Lambo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lambo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lambo)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2004, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/action-movies-with-intelligent-heroes/252892/52 "2004-07-01T18:12:15Z")
> [@Fish](#): > > Ack, yes, of course, Christopher **Lloyd**. Thanks, **msmith537**. I did know that! :smack: Or better yet, try [Christopher Plummer](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0102975/), although Lloyd would have brought an interesting take to the role, I would guess. ---
**Author:** ![Lambo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lambo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lambo)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2004, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/action-movies-with-intelligent-heroes/252892/53 "2004-07-01T18:14:17Z")
> [@Lambo](#): > > Or better yet, try [Christopher Plummer](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0102975/), although Lloyd would have brought an interesting take to the role, I would guess. Well, :smack: myself, I guess. Wrong movie, wrong Klingon, wrong Christopher. ---
**Author:** ![Coelacanth\_Soup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Coelacanth\_Soup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coelacanth_Soup)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2004, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/action-movies-with-intelligent-heroes/252892/54 "2004-07-01T18:35:42Z")
A couple - Jason Bourne from the Borne novels and films is super-smart although most of his enemys are equally smart as him. Sam (De Niro) & Vincent (Jean Reno) in _Ronin_ are both very intelligent and sophisticated. None of the characters in those two examples go around spouting Shakespeare – they don’t appear pompous at all; but is going around quoting literature really a mark of intelligence and sophistication, or rather a sign of pretension and arrogance. That is an important aspect of the films in question. Its not that the audience doesn’t like smart and sophistciated people - its that everybody hates pompous jackasses who go around acting like they are better than everybody else. Its nice to see that type of person get thrown off a building by a cowboy (or a street cop, taxi driver, soldier, cook, etc.) every now and then. > [@](#): > > **ArchiveGuy** - There’s no arguing that Nick is a sophisticate, but that’s different than being an intellecutal (and even so, most of his personal friends are thugs; he’s a socialite largely by assoction through Nora). As for Nick from _The Thin Man_, he is very intelligent even though he enjoys partying and spending his wife’s money. He is so sharp that he is able to outsmart everybody from the villans to the police – and he does it so causually that it elevates him the status of an intellectual giant compared to the other characters in the films. The villans are pretty stupid in the Thin Man films but the police are even stupider. Another good thread topic could be film with law enforcement who are so inept that an outsider is forced to solve the crime. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2004, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/action-movies-with-intelligent-heroes/252892/55 "2004-07-01T18:37:53Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > It’s a lot diferent than being a smug, condescending know-it-all (think Ivan Rickman in Die Hard). Good point. Now, who will nominate a smug, condescending know-it-all action movie hero? ---
**Author:** ![Coelacanth\_Soup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Coelacanth\_Soup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coelacanth_Soup)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2004, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/action-movies-with-intelligent-heroes/252892/56 "2004-07-01T18:59:01Z")
> [@](#): > > **kunilou** - Good point. Now, who will nominate a smug, condescending know-it-all action movie hero? James Bond comes close - he reeks of overconfidence, swagger, and pretension; and he shows almost no intellectual sensitivity to all of the killing he does, and shows no emotional sensitvity in the way he treats women. He always plays the know-it-all against his superiors and coworkers at MI6. The latest line of Bond films has begun to address these things. In _Goldeneye_, Janus askes Bond if the screams from all the people he has killed are drowned out by the vodka martinis, and Zukovsky and his cronies make fun of Bond for ordering his martinis “shaken but not stirred.” Oddly enough Zukovsky comes across as more likeable than Bond in _Goldeneye_ and _World is not Enough_, too bad they killed him off. It seems more common (even preferred) to have smug heros in the Crime/Mystery genre: Sherlock Holmes, Hercule Poirot, Nero Wolfe, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Kizarvexius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/da6949/32.png) [@Kizarvexius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kizarvexius)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2004, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/action-movies-with-intelligent-heroes/252892/57 "2004-07-01T19:10:24Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I think people are confusing a couple of things here. There’s a diference between being “intelligent” and “educated” and being “intellectual”. For example, Indiana Jones is obviously educated and smart. Crighton from Farscape is educated and smart (although his companions think he’s a moron) by Earth standards. But neither are very “intellectual”. They don’t speak with “prestige” accents (English, French, German). They aren’t high ranking military commanders or businessmen. They were not raised in high society. They are regular guys who happen to also be very smart in their field. It’s a lot diferent than being a smug, condescending know-it-all (think Ivan Rickman in Die Hard). Oh dear. So an intellectual is necessarily someone who speaks with a prestige accent, is a military officer or business tycoon, is raised in high society, and is a smug, condescending know-it-all? Ye gods. I’ve been accused of being a smug, condescending know-it-all, but I don’t qualify on any of your other criteria. Guess I have to turn in my shiny intellectual’s badge. I think you’ve confused “intellectual” with “snob”. I’ll grant that a great many intellectuals are snobs (though this is by no means limited to the upper social/economic class). But even if they do frequently go hand-in-hand, they are not the same. I’ve known plenty of intellectuals without a snobbish bone in their bodies, and I’ve also known plenty of snobs who could never be described as intellectual. Take Paris Hilton, for example. An intellectual is someone whose interests are dominated by the world of ideas, art, and/or academia, sometimes to the exclusion of more mundane matters. What is more, they are _passionate_ about these interests, not merely involved with them in a day-job sort of way. They very well may have day jobs not associated with their fields of interest, and may look, talk and act like “regular” people. Intellect is purely internal. Indiana Jones definitely qualifies as an intellectual. He travels the globe, overcoming vengeful natives, evil rivals, cunning traps, feminine wiles, the perils of the wild, secret fraternities, snakes, rats, and insects. And for what? To recover some priceless artifact – and put it in a museum for the collective enlightenment of mankind. Not for glory. Not for fame. Not for money. Not even to get laid. He’s passionate about antiquity for its own sake. Now THAT’S an intellectual. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2004, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/action-movies-with-intelligent-heroes/252892/58 "2004-07-01T21:21:42Z")
I got one: Zorro. He’s a goddamned Spanish hidalgo in “real” life. ---
**Author:** ![brianjedi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@brianjedi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brianjedi)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2004, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/action-movies-with-intelligent-heroes/252892/59 "2004-07-01T21:32:50Z")
Here’s one for debate: The Rock in **The Rundown**. Sure, he’s a hired goon for a rich mobster-type, but he’s studying to become a chef and open a restaurant, he outsmarts both Christopher Walken AND his boss, and he’s not the typical “shoot it until it stops moving” action hero. ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/action-movies-with-intelligent-heroes/252892/60 "2004-07-02T07:18:20Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > It’s a lot diferent than being a smug, condescending know-it-all (think Ivan Rickman in Die Hard). And turnabout is fair play: it’s **Alan Rickman** in _Die Hard_. I don’t know an Ivan Rickman—are you thinking of Ivan Reitman? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/action-movies-with-intelligent-heroes/252892.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/action-movies-with-intelligent-heroes/252892.md?page=4)