# Acupuncture? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [June 8, 2011, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acupuncture/584780 "2011-06-08T21:14:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acupuncture/584780/21 "2011-06-10T00:39:31Z")
I did have one odd experience with an Asian phlebotomist that bears slightly on acupuncture. She first rapidly patted the area where she was about to draw with her off hand as though she were burping a very tiny baby, and then stuck the needle in. I didn’t feel a thing. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Lance\_Murdoch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/47e85d/32.png) [@Captain\_Lance\_Murdoch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Lance_Murdoch)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acupuncture/584780/22 "2011-06-10T01:22:12Z")
Since we’re dispensing with scientific studies in favor of anecdotes, I have one. My wife has suffered from migraines since childhood. She got a referral to an acupuncturist from her doctor (hey, it couldn’t hurt.) She was willing to do it, but wasn’t sure it would help her. She asked a few questions about it to the practitioner who was visibly offended that anyone would question acupuncture. She went through the procedure. It did nothing whatsoever for her. The needles hurt too. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acupuncture/584780/23 "2011-06-10T02:14:00Z")
> [@EclipseMN](#): > > I think people are getting too caught up in details here. Does it really matter what the exact testing methods are to determine whether mice are in pain? Do you also question the exact methods used to determine that those reporting improvement were probably subject to a placebo effect? Yes and yes. These “details” are what determine quality scientific research, a foundation of evidence-based medicine. > [@](#): > > Once again, you may say all day and night that an observed improvement in an animal is subjective but this is just a dead end and really serves no useful purpose. I could just say you obviously haven’t spent much time around these animals, but that’s not useful either. In truth it really is no different than trying to convince someone the earth is round. Back to this analogy? Has it struck you yet that for millennia people were convinced that the earth was flat, because it was so obvious from casual observation? More rigorous study and observation were required to determine otherwise. > [@](#): > > I posted this topic for one reason and one only, to tell people that there is in fact evidence that acupuncture actually does something, at least for some and at least some of the time. This evidence is in veterinary medicine. I’m perfectly well aware that this is anecdotal, but alas I do not have a university grant stuffed in my back pocket to fund a study. And if I did, I doubt this is the subject I’d spend it on… and I think that’s kind of the point. Who is going to fund this? Where’s the payoff? A standard rejoinder among alt med advocates. It gets bizarre - you hear how their brand of woo doesn’t get studied because there’s no money/patent in it, while simultaneously you’re assured that scientific research backs it up, only skeptics are such meanies to want good quality, reproducible research. Talk about trying to have it both ways. > [@](#): > > Sure, maybe private practitioners would benefit from a positive finding, but is there a single funding source that stands to gain? Not that I know of. Try searching the PubMed scientific literature database, and you’ll find lots and lots of studies relating to acupuncture, including the one on “real” and sham acupuncture linked to earlier. There is also a federal agency under the auspices of the NIH (National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine) that has gotten over a billion dollars in the last decade or so to study woo including acupuncture (with relatively minimal results). The existence of people who just know that acupuncture works and are scurrying around trying to find a mechanism to explain it reminds me of a character named Lionel Milgrom, who has published learned and extremely abstruse papers in semi-scientific journals, proposing mechanisms by which homeopathy is supposed to work. These folks need to worry less about complex mechanisms and more about definitively establishing that their woo is anything more than placebo. That task has long been a failure in the case of homeopathy, and the outlook is not exactly rosy for acupuncture. > [@](#): > > I have no emotional investment in the subject at all, except that I don’t like unnecessarily dismissive attitudes on the basis of “not enough proof” or “not good enough proof” or “I don’t trust that proof”. That kind of thing has gotten us into lots of trouble in the past and present. I know this isn’t one of those important issues, but the attitude is the problem, not the specific issue of the day. We’ll have to differ on that one. Being convinced that various health modalities are effective on the basis of anecdote and flawed personal observation has gotten us into far more trouble than basing care on good evidence (I seem to recall someone going on about Caesarean section and widespread use of circumcision awhile back). ---
**Author:** ![EclipseMN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bb73d2/32.png) [@EclipseMN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EclipseMN)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acupuncture/584780/24 "2011-06-10T05:22:08Z")
> [@](#): > > I seem to recall someone going on about Caesarean section and widespread use of circumcision awhile back Are you suggesting something in particular about this, or just being funny? I’m curious, because you seem to be alluding that these points are some kind of fringe fluff and if you care to I could actually go into this at quite some length. Personally, I think the thought that criticizing overuse of cesarean section in childbirth is “alternative” is worrisome to say the least. However it does get off the subject of this particular thread. There seems to be an automatic dismissal here brought on by the association of acupuncture with all sorts of crazy snake oil. I will again try to rephrase what I’ve repeatedly said in order to attempt to illustrate the point I’m making. If there are all kinds of quacks claiming that aspirin works as an effective form of birth control, stops male pattern baldness and clears up your acne that wouldn’t mean it won’t help your headache (see, I didn’t say the world’s not flat… but it really isn’t, I promise you). Oh wait, it actually does help clear up your acne too. See, sometimes even the crazy-sounding things actually hold some water. However there’s a definite attitude out there that takes a knee-jerk reaction to what sounds like obvious charlatanism and takes up a fortified opposite position that all claims are automatically false. While in experimentation and hard science it is correct that nothing can be assumed to be true until it is proven so, it does not follow that everything else is false. Once again, I posted this for one simple reason. I don’t claim to be an expert on the subject, and in fact I know very little about it, nor do I practice any other “alternative” medicine or treatment of which I’m aware. However, it seems to me that a lot of people are unaware that acupuncture is routinely used in veterinary medicine, and used very successfully. So I figure now a few more people have heard this information. Maybe someday someone will even do a serious look into the use of acupuncture on large animals for relief of arthritis, inflammation or pain. I’d like to see that happen. But I don’t expect it. EclipseMN ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acupuncture/584780/25 "2011-06-10T14:55:13Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > I seem to recall someone going on about Caesarean section and widespread use of circumcision awhile back > [@EclipseMN](#): > > Are you suggesting something in particular about this, or just being funny? I’m curious, because you seem to be alluding that these points are some kind of fringe fluff and if you care to I could actually go into this at quite some length. What I’m alluding to is that it seems odd for you to be dismissive about the need for good evidence in health care (i.e. who needs “proof” when we’ve got impressive anecdotes) after having cited examples of mainstream medical practice which have been changing on the basis of said evidence. Changing the subject from acupuncture to supposed mainstream medicine foibles reeks of two tactics often used by alt med advocates. “They wuz wrong before!” is not a compelling argument for embracing current woo, and the whole tu quoque thing is a badly overused and illegitimate debate tactic. > [@](#): > > There seems to be an automatic dismissal here brought on by the association of acupuncture with all sorts of crazy snake oil. There are certainly snake oil aspects to the field, but if you go back and reread the posts you’ll find specific questions and references supporting the view that acupuncture has not been shown to have the benefits you think are obvious. > [@](#): > > However there’s a definite attitude out there that takes a knee-jerk reaction to what sounds like obvious charlatanism and takes up a fortified opposite position that all claims are automatically false. While in experimentation and hard science it is correct that nothing can be assumed to be true until it is proven so, it does not follow that everything else is false. Another old alt med saw, i.e. “absence of evidence is not evidence of absence”. The proper response to that is “you’ve got nothing.” The default position in science, which may seem frustrating to those unfamiliar with scientific reasoning is that propositions, however appealing and obvious they may seem, require backing by evidence. The more far-out (or “revolutionary”, if you prefer) a hypothesis is and the more it violates known physical rules and human physiology (i.e. “qi” and the homeopathic concept that drugs that don’t contain a molecule of the active substance are active in treating disease) the more stringent the need to document them with good evidence. By the way, I personally _have_ been treated by an acupuncturist - a total of two visits for a problem that was not helped by acupuncture (I didn’t have high expectations so I wasn’t very disappointed (hmm, maybe that’s why it didn’t work :dubious:), though the practitioner was pleasant and up front about the low probability that continued treatments would do any good. It was also pretty much painless). Please feel free to post any good documentation that acupuncture is successful in veterinary medicine, apart from anecdotes about how Horsie was ready for the knacker but upon having its meridians stimulated, got up and ran the Kentucky Derby. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2011, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acupuncture/584780/26 "2011-06-11T00:03:49Z")
Besides, acupuncture has been superseded by a sensational new modality, [colorpuncture](http://www.chinacdf.org.cn/icon/07HolisticHealthMedicine/05LightIsLife.pdf). The lowdown [here](http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/06/your_friday_dose_of_woo_acupuncture_colo.php#more). ---
**Author:** ![Uncertain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Uncertain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncertain)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2011, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acupuncture/584780/27 "2011-06-11T01:43:17Z")
Please, please stop saying “woo”. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2011, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acupuncture/584780/28 "2011-06-11T14:37:14Z")
> [@Uncertain](#): > > Please, please stop saying “woo”. [Some](http://seekonk.patch.com/listings/acupuncture-of-woo) acupuncturists _want_ you to say [woo](http://www.chinaherb.net/infertility.htm). ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2011, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acupuncture/584780/29 "2011-06-16T20:42:59Z")
I can’t speak for the meridians themselves, but the acupuncture points themselves definitely exist. Not only are several of them used in Asian martial arts (specifically the carotid sinus point, called Ren Ying in Chinese) _very_ effectively, but many/most of these points: 1. Are directly over a muscle belly 2. become sore points when someone is having health problems, particularly in cases of poor posture or muscle strains. In other words, if you are having shoulder pain, 99 times out of 100, you will have painful trigger points at _exactly_ the same locations as the acupuncture points around the shoulder. If a particular muscle is sore, it will nearly always be much more tender/sore right at the muscle belly, and that’s exactly where acupuncture points will show up. Anyone can tell you that massaging a sore muscle often provides pain relief, and massaging the most painful point in the muscle is usually the most efficient way to get relief. It also hurts the most, but…lots of medical treatments involve painful side effects. The only difference between massaging a trigger/acupuncture point and using a needle is the needle is smaller than your finger. The acupuncturist needs to know _exactly_ where the points are, though…with self-massage, you can find them by going to the general area of the point, and pressing until you find the most painful spot. Acupuncture points exist. The question is figuring out what they do. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2011, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acupuncture/584780/30 "2011-06-16T20:50:32Z")
Cite from a medical journal, please? ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2011, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acupuncture/584780/31 "2011-06-16T21:08:48Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Cite from a medical journal, please? First punch yourself really, really hard in the carotid sinus. _Then_ tell me acupuncture points don’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2011, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acupuncture/584780/32 "2011-06-16T21:51:07Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > First punch yourself really, really hard in the carotid sinus. _Then_ tell me acupuncture points don’t exist. So the tip of the nose is an acupuncture point-who knew? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acupuncture/584780/33 "2011-06-17T01:01:04Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > I can’t speak for the meridians themselves, but the acupuncture points themselves definitely exist. Not only are several of them used in Asian martial arts (specifically the carotid sinus point, called Ren Ying in Chinese) _very_ effectively, but many/most of these points: > > 1. Are directly over a muscle belly > > 2. become sore points when someone is having health problems, particularly in cases of poor posture or muscle strains. What sort of “health problems”? Fatigue? Cardiac ischemia? Obstructed bowel? Massive sepsis? By the way, a horde of osteopaths, chiropractors, massage therapists, physical therapists etc. would like to have a word with you over the idea of giving sole credit to acupuncture theory for any benefits that can be ascribed to the laying on of hands. ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acupuncture/584780/34 "2011-06-17T02:21:40Z")
A few studies showing biological effects of laser acupuncture in humans and acupuncture in rats: > **[The Brain Effects of Laser Acupuncture in Healthy Individuals: An fMRI...](https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0012619)** > > Background As laser acupuncture is being increasingly used to treat mental disorders, we sought to determine whether it has a biologically plausible effect by using functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) to investigate the cerebral activation... [http://www.medicalacupuncture.org/aama\_marf/journal/vol16\_1/article5.html](http://www.medicalacupuncture.org/aama_marf/journal/vol16_1/article5.html) > **[Acupuncture's molecular effects pinned down: New insights spur effort to...](https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/05/100530144021.htm)** > > Scientists have identified the molecule adenosine as a central player in parlaying some of the effects of acupuncture in the body. Building on that knowledge, scientists were able to triple the beneficial effects of acupuncture in mice by adding a... ---
**Author:** ![WalkingAMile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a587f6/32.png) [@WalkingAMile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WalkingAMile)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acupuncture/584780/35 "2011-06-17T02:53:34Z")
I will say from my own experience that acupuncture works in animals and humans. I had a maltese and she tripped a guy the size of an NFL linebacker. He fell on her and she started walking crooked. I was really upset and the vets I called said maybe surgury and the like. I called an acupuncturist and she came over and hooked up the little dog to needles that were tied to a machine via electrical wires. The dog started walking normal in 2 hours after the appointment. Myself I decided to try the “addiction accupuncture” that my chiropractor’s office offered to quit smoking. I was really skeptical. It actually does work. I didn’t want a cigarrette, but the withdrawal symptoms were still agony. I did go a day without one wich is longer than I ever have. But what was unexpected is that I found I didn’t want a cup of coffee or a chocalate bar. For about a month I could only finish a half cup of coffee. I suppose exposure to it made me addicted once again. My chiropractor said that I didn’t drink enough water. He explained that when you quite smoking that toxins are dumped on your body and you need a whole bunch of water. He offered to do it again for free. However I could barely face the needles the first time and couldn’t bring myself to do it again. I will someday when I am really ready to be out of commission for like a week. I really wish they did more studies on things like this. Most of the studies into natural types of medicine are done by drug companies. They look at natural remedies, and see how they can convert them to a medicine and make money. Aspirine is one such example. Since they can’t turn acupuncture into a patented medicine, then they don’t bother. That’s my humble opinon anyway. I would expect a swiss institute to do an extensive study someday. ---
**Author:** ![Eyeglass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8c91f0/32.png) [@Eyeglass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyeglass)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acupuncture/584780/36 "2011-06-17T03:37:38Z")
But, in neither the question or answer was the intened efficacy defined. “Does accupuncture work?” In these responses and in the column it seems people think proponents believe accupincture to be a miracle practice. Does it cure AIDS? No, but it will relieve pain for some and it will help some to relax and some will seek it out to induce labor. Yes it works. Just like a carnival works - some people find it a perfect distraction and some find it full of scary clowns. Maybe if accupuncture caused confusion; decreased urination; fainting; hallucinations; loss of coordination; memory problems; menstrual changes; muscle twitching; new or worsening mental or mood problems (eg, depression, irritability, anxiety); overstimulation; red, swollen blistered, or peeling skin; seizures; severe dizziness; severe or persistent trouble sleeping; suicidal thoughts or actions; trouble speaking (eg, stammering, stuttering); yellowing of the eyes or skin… People would find it easier to say it “works” ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acupuncture/584780/37 "2011-06-17T04:28:28Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > So the tip of the nose is an acupuncture point-who knew? The carotid sinus is a baroreceptor point at the bifurcation of the carotid artery in the throat. It has nothing to do with the nose. Or did you know that? Punch yourself pretty hard there, and you won’t be doing so well. There are a number of acupuncture points that, when struck, can cause everything from nausea to unconsciousness to death. The carotid sinus can be a kill point, with a full power strike. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acupuncture/584780/38 "2011-06-17T04:30:41Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > What sort of “health problems”? Fatigue? Cardiac ischemia? Obstructed bowel? Massive sepsis? > > By the way, a horde of osteopaths, chiropractors, massage therapists, physical therapists etc. would like to have a word with you over the idea of giving sole credit to acupuncture theory for any benefits that can be ascribed to the laying on of hands. Many osteopaths, chiropractors, and massage therapists also practice acupressure and acupuncture. Acupoints are taught in many massage programs, and there are tons of chiropractors who use various acupoint therapies. You didn’t know that? ---
**Author:** ![Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mean_mr.mustard/32/3865_2.png) [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mean_Mr.Mustard)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acupuncture/584780/39 "2011-06-17T04:36:09Z")
> [@John\_W.Kennedy](#): > > I did have one odd experience with an Asian phlebotomist that bears slightly on acupuncture. She first rapidly patted the area where she was about to draw with her off hand as though she were burping a very tiny baby, and then stuck the needle in. I didn’t feel a thing. Sorry to poke a needle [HAH!] in your theory, John, but you experience was neither odd nor acupuncture-related. She patted the needle insertion site to stimulate the vein in order that it would become more prominent and easier to see/feel. A pretty standard practice. The fact that she was Asian was a coincidence. I’ve been involved in many phlebotomy procedures - at both ends of the needle - in which there was absolutely no pain involved. mmm ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acupuncture/584780/40 "2011-06-17T20:55:13Z")
I’ve had at least one diagnostic blood draw per month for over five years, not to mention various IVs and injections, and many years, before my health went south, of being a regular blood donor. The patting procedure was unique to this single experience, and the absolute lack of sensation from the needle was equally unique. I grant that the ethnicity of the phlebotomist may well mea nothing. (And I wish some convenient vein dilation trick _were_ common; after years of abuse, my veins run and hide whenever they see a needle, and I often have to be stuck two or three times.) I cannot help but see the experience as a possible (anecdotal, of course) confirmation of the “distraction” theory of acupuncture. At the very least, it gets filed under “things that make you go ‘hmmm’”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acupuncture/584780.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/acupuncture/584780.md?page=3)