# AD 793 were the Vikings really that bad **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 16, 2018, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ad-793-were-the-vikings-really-that-bad/817991 "2018-07-16T05:39:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2018, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ad-793-were-the-vikings-really-that-bad/817991/21 "2018-07-16T20:07:54Z")
Yes the term “Viking” is a modern adaptation of _noble savages_ and is mostly myth. The Saxon’s called them the Dene and the Slaves and Arabs called them the Rus’, and the English tended to call them the Northmen or Danes but the story is probably much more complicated then that. The common story about [Rurik](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rurik) as an example, which is suppose to be the _viking_ that helped unify Russian tribes as an example is problematic because genetically he appears to be an ethnic Finn of haplotype N1c1. While physical artifacts like the The Gårdstånga Stone demonstrate that there were people called vikings most of the history is muddled by a lack of written accounts, a modern desire to trace linage to the Vikings and an inexact labeling of the groups in general. This was a brutal period in this area of the world, but even the Anglo-Scandinavian which is used by academic papers in recent times is problematic due to the Finno-Ugric origin of the Rurikids. Related to the OP, most books that are our there will be colored by these biases either in descriptions of the events or in a desire to connect one’s history to this group. Genetics is invalidating a lot of the previous claims, so if you want an accurate story you may just have to wait for a few years or be OK with the unfortunate reality that we may never have the full story. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2018, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ad-793-were-the-vikings-really-that-bad/817991/22 "2018-07-16T20:19:51Z")
> [@Lucas\_Jackson](#): > > Slavery had come up several times in this thread. Who were the Vikings selling slaves to? The reason slavery was eventually banned in Europe was to prevent Christian slaves from being sold to non-christian aka Muslim groups. Sale of Christian slaves was restricted to non-Christian groups then the prohibition of slavery in general happened over time. The Volga trade route between the Varangians and the Arabs, which directly relates to this. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2018, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ad-793-were-the-vikings-really-that-bad/817991/23 "2018-07-16T20:23:34Z")
> [@Lucas\_Jackson](#): > > Slavery had come up several times in this thread. Who were the Vikings selling slaves to? To whoever would buy them, of course. E.g., slaves were taken from north/east Europe to sell to Persians and such. But many slaves were kept within the Norse communities. And they didn’t necessarily stay slaves all their lives. People could and did earn their freedom. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2018, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ad-793-were-the-vikings-really-that-bad/817991/24 "2018-07-16T20:41:41Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > And while I don’t disagree with your point, a mini-ice age causing starvation…forced their hand. Actually just the opposite. The period from ~900-1300( dates variable depending who you talk to )was the Medieval Warm Period. The net result may have been much the same though. Instead of starvation forcing their hand, an abundance of food seems to have encouraged a population explosion instead. Expanding population that was resource limited in other ways, including socially, may have been a significant driver in overseas expansion/colonization. Something like lots of younger sons looking to establish themselves. Found this [master’s thesis](https://scholarworks.umt.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=4881&context=etd) that discusses this a bit. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2018, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ad-793-were-the-vikings-really-that-bad/817991/25 "2018-07-16T20:48:34Z")
William the Conqueror was of Viking extraction and he ‘conquered’ the whole of Britain. Though he spoke a dialect of French and grew up in Normandy, a fiefdom loyal to the French kingdom, William and other Normans descended from Scandinavian invaders. William’s great-great-great-grandfather, Rollo, pillaged northern France with fellow Viking raiders in the late ninth and early 10th centuries, eventually accepting his own territory (Normandy, named for the Norsemen who controlled it) in exchange for peace. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2018, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ad-793-were-the-vikings-really-that-bad/817991/26 "2018-07-16T20:49:26Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > The Volga trade route between the Varangians and the Arabs, which directly relates to this. Right. A lot of Slavic slaves ended up in areas as far afield as [Spain](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saqaliba), many via the Rus to Arab/Jewish middlemen and thence to Iberia. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2018, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ad-793-were-the-vikings-really-that-bad/817991/27 "2018-07-16T21:26:59Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > To whoever would buy them, of course. E.g., slaves were taken from north/east Europe to sell to Persians and such. But many slaves were kept within the Norse communities. And they didn’t necessarily stay slaves all their lives. People could and did earn their freedom. The term is [Thralls](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrall) There was an entire Renaissance in Europe that was in large part funded by the sale of captured Slavs/Finns to Muslim Spain. This is another example where the Vikings are debased for doing similar, immoral actions as Charlemagne and the parties that are often depicted as being innocent victims. But that is because the Frankish view is the one we are presented, and the history is far more complex. > **[Carolingian Renaissance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carolingian_Renaissance)** > > The Carolingian Renaissance was the first of three medieval renaissances, a period of cultural activity in the Carolingian Empire. Charlemagne's reign led to an intellectual revival beginning in the 8th century and continuing throughout the 9th century, taking inspiration from ancient Roman and Greek culture and the Christian Roman Empire of the fourth century. During this period, there was an increase of literature, writing, visual arts, architecture, music, jurisprudence, liturgical reforms, Th... I did find this dissertation which will help show how overly simplified the common narrative is. [http://digitalassets.lib.berkeley.edu/etd/ucb/text/Melleno\_berkeley\_0028E\_14454.pdf](http://digitalassets.lib.berkeley.edu/etd/ucb/text/Melleno_berkeley_0028E_14454.pdf) > [@](#): > > Using textual and archaeological evidence to examine patterns of interaction and relationship between Francia and Scandinavia from 700-840 this dissertation demonstrates that the Viking attacks of the ninth century were not a sudden rupture of relations between Scandinavia and the wider world, nor a demonstration of unbridled violence. Rather, the attacks were part of an ongoing narrative of commerce, diplomacy, and strife between the Frankish Empire and its northern neighbors which began long before the Viking Age. ---
**Author:** ![JB99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@JB99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JB99)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2018, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ad-793-were-the-vikings-really-that-bad/817991/28 "2018-07-16T21:29:35Z")
> [@Lucas\_Jackson](#): > > Slavery had come up several times in this thread. Who were the Vikings selling slaves to? Themselves, mostly, but they sold to anyone else who wanted one. Ibn Hawqal, an Arab geographer, described a Viking slave trade in 977 A.D. that extended across the Mediterranean from Spain to Egypt. Others recorded that slaves from northern Europe were funneled from Scandinavia through Russia to Byzantium and Baghdad. Slave trading was still common in Western Europe. Also, the modern word “thrall,” as in “to be enthralled,” descends from the Norse word for slave. PS. It seems Christians were totally cool with trading slaves, unless those slaves were themselves Christian. PSS. Ibn Hawqal was not the guy from the movie. That was Ibn Fadlan. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2018, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ad-793-were-the-vikings-really-that-bad/817991/29 "2018-07-17T05:52:50Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > And they didn’t necessarily stay slaves all their lives. People could and did earn their freedom. Others, of course, would [end up](https://www.livescience.com/40792-viking-slaves-sacrified-burial.html) [sacrificed](http://sciencenordic.com/vikings-abused-and-beheaded-their-slaves)when their master died (possibly after having other horrific things done to them) so let’s not pretend the Norse (happy, **DrDeth**?) were all “social mobility and kittens”, yeah? Also, one big source of thralls was the children of thralls, so they weren’t \*that \*mobile. It’s probable skilled craftsmen and debt slaves from within the community were much more likely to win freedom than menial labourers and foreigners. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2018, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ad-793-were-the-vikings-really-that-bad/817991/30 "2018-07-17T06:03:09Z")
Slavery often meant different things in different cultures; Roman slaves could have their own possessions and possibly end up buying their freedom. Slaves in the USA were basically like the furniture, no rights at all. Some slave classes were well educated. Slavery was sometims a concept, before the welfare state, that ensured everyone was taken care of. I’m trying to imagine how many slaves could be transported any decent distance in those Viking longboats unless they could help with the rowing…? ---
**Author:** ![Telperion](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telperion/32/509_2.png) [@Telperion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telperion)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2018, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ad-793-were-the-vikings-really-that-bad/817991/31 "2018-07-17T10:54:55Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > I’m trying to imagine how many slaves could be transported any decent distance in those Viking longboats unless they could help with the rowing…? Based on the fact that longships were often used as troop transports, written accounts seem to suggest they could take about 30 men in addition to the rowers, of which there were generally 13 to 16 per side depending on size of ship. Of course, a Viking leader would command several ships, so a raiding fleet would often hold hundreds of warriors and probably several dozen captives. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2018, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ad-793-were-the-vikings-really-that-bad/817991/32 "2018-07-17T18:04:55Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > Slavery often meant different things in different cultures; Roman slaves could have their own possessions and possibly end up buying their freedom. Slaves in the USA were basically like the furniture, no rights at all. Some slave classes were well educated. If you were a Roman house slave, like a tutor, you had rights and life might actually be better than a plebe subsisting on the grain allowance. if you were working on a farm or in the mines, life was nasty, brutish and hell. And see, you have found one of the big issues with Romand slavery vs American slavery. Altho of course the Romans did think they were better than the Germans or the Gauls, by no means did they think those peoples were subhuman. They were just unlucky. They lost a war, thus - slave. If you were freed or bought your freedom, you were OK. In American slavery, the black slaves werent even considered fully human. Slavery was their lot. Even after getting freed they were looked down upon. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2018, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ad-793-were-the-vikings-really-that-bad/817991/33 "2018-07-17T18:15:22Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > if you were working on a farm or in the mines, life was nasty, brutish and hell. But thankfully short. See ? There’s always a silver lining ! > [@](#): > > And see, you have found one of the big issues with Romand slavery vs American slavery. Altho of course the Romans did think they were better than the Germans or the Gauls, by no means did they think those peoples were subhuman. They were just unlucky. They lost a war, thus - slave. If you were freed or bought your freedom, you were OK. Not sure that’s true however. By legal right, Roman (and Greek) slaves were unpeople. Items. Property. “A tool that speaks”, in the parlance of the time. Slaves had to carry a slate around their necks informing people of their status and who their master was. And though they could be freed, a freed slave was still considered to owe their life to their masters and were still required to do shit for them until the day either of them died, and that debt passed on to offspring too. The children of slaves were slaves, no question about it. And former slaves or descendants of slaves were treated kindasorta like the Japanese treat \*bunrakumin - \*there’s no actual law saying you’re lesser people, but you still very much are. I do agree however that they didn’t think of it in racial terms at all however, and maybe that’s your point wrt the difference w/ American slavery. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2018, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ad-793-were-the-vikings-really-that-bad/817991/34 "2018-07-17T18:45:00Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > But thankfully short. See ? There’s always a silver lining ! > > Not sure that’s true however. By legal right, Roman (and Greek) slaves were unpeople. Items. Property. “A tool that speaks”, in the parlance of the time. Slaves had to carry a slate around their necks informing people of their status and who their master was. And though they could be freed, a freed slave was still considered to owe their life to their masters and were still required to do shit for them until the day either of them died, and that debt passed on to offspring too. The children of slaves were slaves, no question about it. And former slaves or descendants of slaves were treated kindasorta like the Japanese treat \*bunrakumin - \*there’s no actual law saying you’re lesser people, but you still very much are. > I do agree however that they didn’t think of it in racial terms at all however, and maybe that’s your point wrt the difference w/ American slavery. Yes, but the children of the Freed slave were Citizens, with full rights. Whereas the Children of a free Black slave were still “subhuman niggers”. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2018, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ad-793-were-the-vikings-really-that-bad/817991/35 "2018-07-17T19:06:38Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yes, but the children of the Freed slave were Citizens, with full rights. When and where? Not in ancient Rome or Greece, where most of the population of any given town weren’t citizens. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2018, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ad-793-were-the-vikings-really-that-bad/817991/36 "2018-07-17T19:09:25Z")
793 was a bit before Fran Tarkenton was with them, so yeah, they were probably pretty bad. Probably lost to both the Packers and Bears. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2018, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ad-793-were-the-vikings-really-that-bad/817991/37 "2018-07-17T19:09:37Z")
> [@Telperion](#): > > Based on the fact that longships were often used as troop transports, written accounts seem to suggest they could take about 30 men in addition to the rowers, of which there were generally 13 to 16 per side depending on size of ship. Of course, a Viking leader would command several ships, so a raiding fleet would often hold hundreds of warriors and probably several dozen captives. No need for long-ships probably, as Prague used the the Danube, and Venice would have been easier over land for the Frankish slavers. IIRC cities that rose due to the slave trade like Cadiz were much later. Prohibition of trade with Muslims and Pagans probably did force the sea route, but I would bet that small boats on the Volga were far more common when trade was blocked. Unfortunately outside of economic historians the topic is taboo but the caravans of Slavic slaves through the Alps to Lyon is documented. The trade of slaves was so common throughout Europe in the early Middle Ages that it is doubtful that the Vikings were a drop in the bucket compared to the millions of people who were sold through the normal economic channels. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2018, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ad-793-were-the-vikings-really-that-bad/817991/38 "2018-07-17T19:12:01Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > History is always written by the victors, and it is a complex subject but one cannot ignore the brutality of Charlemagne which actually pre-dated the invasions as an example, Sigfried’s brother was murdered in the “The Massacre of Verdun”. History is not always written by the victors, and the Vikings/Norse are a good example. They conquered most of Britain, and even after the rise of Alfred they controlled [half of modern England](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danelaw). Then they conquered [the whole thing again](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cnut_the_Great#Conquest_of_England). But they didn’t leave much of their own writing, and numerous copies of the _Anglo-Saxon Chronicle_ survived, so the history of Viking Britain was largely written by the losers (that is, the Saxons). Of course, after 1066 England was under Norman control, and so the history of that period was written by the Normans. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2018, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ad-793-were-the-vikings-really-that-bad/817991/39 "2018-07-17T19:12:32Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > When and where? Not in ancient Rome or Greece, where most of the population of any given town weren’t citizens. Everyone born in Rome itself was a citizen, unless a slave. And most of Italia. > **[Roman citizenship](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_citizenship)** > > Citizenship in ancient Rome (Latin: civitas) was a privileged political and legal status afforded to free individuals with respect to laws, property, and governance. Citizenship in ancient Rome was complex and based upon many different laws, traditions, and cultural practices. There existed several different types of citizenship, determined by one's gender, class, and political affiliations, and the exact duties or expectations of a citizen varied throughout the history of the Roman Empire. > Th... _Freedmen were former slaves who had gained their freedom. They were not automatically given citizenship and lacked some privileges such as running for executive magistracies. The children of freedmen and women were born as free citizens; for example, the father of the poet Horace was a freedman._ ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2018, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ad-793-were-the-vikings-really-that-bad/817991/40 "2018-07-17T19:12:49Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > History is not always written by the victors, and the Vikings/Norse are a good example. They conquered most of Britain, and even after the rise of Alfred they controlled [half of modern England](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danelaw). Then they conquered [the whole thing again](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cnut_the_Great#Conquest_of_England). But they didn’t leave much of their own writing, and numerous copies of the _Anglo-Saxon Chronicle_ survived, so the history of Viking Britain was largely written by the losers (that is, the Saxons). Of course, after 1066 England was under Norman control, and so the history of that period was written by the Normans. It could be argued that the Christian Church was the victor in that case. The Northern Crusades were pretty brutal. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ad-793-were-the-vikings-really-that-bad/817991.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ad-793-were-the-vikings-really-that-bad/817991.md?page=3)