# AD&D v3.5 judgement call - divine or arcane? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 12, 2006, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ad-d-v3-5-judgement-call-divine-or-arcane/344064 "2006-02-12T01:47:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![soulmurk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@soulmurk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/soulmurk)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2006, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ad-d-v3-5-judgement-call-divine-or-arcane/344064/21 "2006-02-12T22:22:16Z")
> [@FilmGeek](#): > > I’ve played a mystic theurge (cleric/sorcerer) and rolled up a cleric/bard theurge and the strength of the class is allowing you access to _more_ spells, it seems like you’d be hamstringing yourself by trying to start earlier, because you wouldn’t even have an arcane class to level up in, if I’m reading your description correctly. In a sense, it would be hamstringing by losing out on being able to turn more powerful undead, bonus feats, etc., but that’s part of the cost of admission to prestige classes. If it were viable, I’d have gone in as a 3rd level cleric/1st level arcane caster and so benefitted fully from the MT’s ability to advance as both an arcane and a divine caster. > [@Merijeek](#): > > Ahh…D&D 3.5…taking min/maxing to an all new level. Min/maxing is half the fun, IMO. Anyone can roll up six stats, drop them onto a character sheet and play a basic class. I can see why some people look down upon it, but not everyone who tweaks and digs for the best combinations is only looking for the ability to do the most damage. Some do it partly for such functionality, but also for aesthetics and roleplaying dynamics. > [@Tengu](#): > > Sure it does. > Flavourwise, a Mystic Theurge is someone who has spent the time and effort to learn and master both the Divine and Arcane arts. Not a Cleric who’s petitioned his god for a couple extra spells. > > Mechanically, it’s a way of making what is normally a mechanically disastrous multiclass (two spellcasting classes are usually a very bad idea) usefull, and even favourable. Perhaps I wasn’t clear enough in my description, but I’d intended on advancing at least one level in an arcane class. I wasn’t looking to completely “beat” the system (besides, it would be completely self-defeating to become a MT with only divine capabilities), just bend it a little and get into the class a little earlier. And upon preview: > [@smiling bandit](#): > > Tengu has it right. I wrote a patch for 3.5 making things like the Mystic Theurge less neccessary. Worked well, too. It just let you carry your caster level over. So getting Cleric 5 and Wizard 5, you had only the spells available from those two classes, but a caster level of 10 in both! Honestly, the MT isn’t a preferred class for my tastes, but for what I’m going for as far as my role within the group, it seemed to fit pretty well. The Complete Arcane has a feat that accomplishes something similar to your rewrite. It’s designed for multi-class characters; it adds 4 to your caster level in one spell casting class you have, up to a maximum of your HD. So, a Cleric 5/Wizard 5 could have caster levels of 9/9 if they took the feat twice. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2006, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ad-d-v3-5-judgement-call-divine-or-arcane/344064/22 "2006-02-13T05:19:10Z")
I beleive I’ve heard of that feat. I despise it. Im my opinion, the game has a flaw simply by making such a feat neccessary in the first place. I added base caster levels to all classes. Worked fins. Simple, used a pre-existing mechanism. They needed a dirty patch a dozen sourcebooks later to fill a hole obvious to a blind man. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2006, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ad-d-v3-5-judgement-call-divine-or-arcane/344064/23 "2006-02-13T15:24:35Z")
I’ve done something similar to smiling bandit’s notion - letting caster levels stack, if only for purposes of caster level checks, and not spell variables. Correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t the text of the Mystic Theurge’s +1 level of spellcasting ability specify that those levels go to the classes that enabled you to qualify for the prestige class in the first place? Perhaps it doesn’t. The Spell domain is from Forgotten Realms, and I don’t remember the specifics well enoguh to be certain, but unless it explicitly says "Your casting from this domain is considered ‘Arcane’ for all relevant purposes’ or some such, it’s still divine. I don’t remember it granting a spellbook either, though I do recall it gets ‘Anyspell’ which allows a Cleric to load a spell from a wizard’s spellbook into memory. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2006, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ad-d-v3-5-judgement-call-divine-or-arcane/344064/24 "2006-02-13T15:53:00Z")
While it’s true Anyspell doesn’t give you a spellbook, they’re dime-a-dozen in D20. In fact, according to their statistics on Wizards, there are hundreds upon thousands of them in every town and city in the world. In any case, the Spell domain’s odd specialty does allow you to prepare and cast _arcane_ spells. It doesn’t let you cast them as divine spells; you actually prepare the arcane version and use that. Since this includes casting failure chance in armor, and lets you use arcane scrolls, I must conclude that it qualifies you for arcane spells. Note the phrasing of the Mystic Theurge: you must be able Of course, you’d still need at least a level in an arcane class, because otherwise you’d be wasting the benefit of the Mystic Theurge. > [@](#): > > Originally posted by the **D20 System Reference Document** > Spells: Able to cast 2nd-level divine spells and 2nd-level arcane spells. It simply says you have to be abel to cast the spell, not that you have to posess it in any other sense. A strict reading of the rules says that “Anyspell” qualifies, even if not arcane spells ever appear on the character’s spell list. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2006, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ad-d-v3-5-judgement-call-divine-or-arcane/344064/25 "2006-02-13T19:13:31Z")
> [@smiling bandit](#): > > It simply says you have to be abel to cast the spell, not that you have to posess it in any other sense. A strict reading of the rules says that “Anyspell” qualifies, even if not arcane spells ever appear on the character’s spell list. Dunno. I’d say, based on this info, without checking my books at home - Spell Domain maybe, Anyspell no. I’d say an Arcane spell mimicked with Anyspell is Divine when cast. Same principle as using Miracle to mimic the effects of an Arcane spell. Unless otherwise noted. As for Spell Domain - only if it explicitly says they’re cast as Arcane spells. Obviously, this is subject to GM interpretation; this is just my interpretation. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2006, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ad-d-v3-5-judgement-call-divine-or-arcane/344064/26 "2006-02-13T23:03:08Z")
Anyspell is part of the Spell domain, and the key part of it. The spell does not become divine; Anyspell _is_ divine, but it just lets you prepare a ready arcane spell. The character meets the listed prerequisites, although I would understand IN any case, the Mystic Theurge, even with anyspell, is not the most powerful PrC around and isnt’t really an issue. It’s only real benefit is an increase in versatility, and there’re many other ways to get that. Broken down point for point, it’s not much above any other class. If you take Cleric/Sorcerer, you get a good bargain. Bard/Druid’s geta a bad one. Cleric/Wizards come out perfectly even in the long run. ---
**Author:** ![soulmurk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@soulmurk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/soulmurk)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2006, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ad-d-v3-5-judgement-call-divine-or-arcane/344064/27 "2006-02-14T05:13:52Z")
The Spell Domain sounds like it would work, but alas, we don’t use Forgotten Realms rulebooks… only partially because none of us actually have any of them. I’ve really given up on the idea of making the MT work and am looking at other fun-to-play, one step above a pure support class, and am currently intrigued by the Hexblade. Like any hybrid class though, they’ve too many important stats to worry about, which makes it difficult to be effective at any aspect of their purpose. I may just end up playing a straight Cleric :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2006, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ad-d-v3-5-judgement-call-divine-or-arcane/344064/28 "2006-02-14T16:00:43Z")
If you hav Tome and Blood (and ti was reprinted in the 3.5 splatbook later) the Spellsword is a solid class. Not too great, but interesting and fun. Frankly, I thought it was far and away better than the most-powerful-but-infinitely-blander Eldritch Knight. For the upcoming Eclipse: D20 Point Buy, we voted it the Most Boring Prestige Class Ever. ---
**Author:** ![soulmurk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@soulmurk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/soulmurk)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2006, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ad-d-v3-5-judgement-call-divine-or-arcane/344064/29 "2006-02-15T00:55:26Z")
> [@smiling bandit](#): > > If you hav Tome and Blood (and ti was reprinted in the 3.5 splatbook later) the Spellsword is a solid class. Not too great, but interesting and fun. Frankly, I thought it was far and away better than the most-powerful-but-infinitely-blander Eldritch Knight. For the upcoming Eclipse: D20 Point Buy, we voted it the Most Boring Prestige Class Ever. I do have a book with the Spellsword in it, though I forget which one it is offhand. I gave it a looksie and thought it might be fun to play… but then I found the Spellthief in the Complete Adventurer, and I think I’ve found my new favorite class. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ad-d-v3-5-judgement-call-divine-or-arcane/344064.md?page=1)