ADA being applied to homebuilding? You gotta be kidding ...

The BBQ Pit
21

Curb-cuts may be useful for all sorts of reasons, all of which make it reasonable to require in new construction or replacement, as I said before. None of those reasons mean it (necessarily) makes sense to go through and replace every single corner with a curb-cut, or put a wheelchair ramp in every existing commercial building, or replace every inset water fountain with a water fountain that sticks out into the walkway, potentially posing a hazard…

Requiring these things in new construction to the extent that costs are not substantially increased may not be objectionable with regards to public accomodations, but requiring retro-fits can be very expensive, and often not worth it in terms of providing needed assistance (as opposed to increased convenience). Just how far should government go in requiring expenditures by private (and subordinate public) entities?

22

Finally!!

The Politically incorrect transcript page is up to date. When this thread first popped up, it wasn’t- I too was checking.

Click the link above and then click transcripts. As of now, it’s the featured transcript. If it isn’t, click the August 7th show.

The details in brief-

The town in question is Santa Monica.
The requirement (As far as I can tell) is being proposed by the city council and (Again, as far as I can tell) is neither endorsed, nor not endorsed, by the ADA.

So, Sauron was a little off, but not by much.

23

And to those that are wondering where I fall in this argument?

Consider me in the ‘This is bullshit’ camp.

I mean, enough already.

In public buildings and on city streets? Sure. Absolutely.

In your own home and on your own property? Forget about it.

Ridiculous “Feel Good” legislation by yet another do-gooder community.

24

The standard libertarian/conservative explanation for anything they think wouldn’t affect them positively or they fear they might have to pay extra for. Bunch of cheapskates. That’s what the “This violates my freedom!” complaint generally boils down to. Christ, it’s new construction and MAJOR remodeling only. And you might not even notice if you weren’t told that it was accessible. An accessible door doesn’t NEED a big-assed ramp cluttering up the front. Just design one of the doors to be at ground level. It’s not like the ADA storm troopers are going to make you do it to your present house and any town government that tried to would be recalled by the voters before the town council meeting was over.

Wait until you or one of your loved ones NEEDS access to your home to be a little easier. Wait until you get injured and need to move because your home, like mine and many other homes, is far from access friendly. Wait until you can’t find a new home because some jerks decided their freedom would be infringed if the town required proper and MODERN design.

25

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Nope, so far as I know none of them had these problems. If they did it was very short term and they probably weren’t going out anyway. I know I’m not all that old but I’ve never broken any bones or had a cavity.

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Well his specific bitch was still against the government, not you.

Well this isn’t the GD it is the pit. :slight_smile: And even if it isn’t true there were people on the show who agreed with the idea.

Marc

26

I’m of the opinion that anyone who wants to build their house without building codes or reqirements should be allowed to do so, with the caveat that it can never be resold.

broomstick had it right in that it costs very little to add handicap ammenities during new construction. It also increases the value of the property at resale because it is attractive to a wider popuation.

One of my side jobs is home inspection. It can be awfully hard to determine if the building in question has been properly built. For instance, around here I have to dig up nearly every foundation to make certain that it actually has on and that it goes below the frost line. One of the local contractors was famous for pouring slabs on grade which looks good until the first winter, when the whole house goes to hell.

Codes are good, codes are better when there is an actual building inspector following the project.

27

  1. You, sir, come from a family that is blessed with good health. Not everybody blahblahblah. (Notice that I get sick of debates pretty quickly? :wink: )

  2. I know that, but the way he phrased it sounded like I was one of those ADA storm troopers.

  3. Well, we now have the show cite so we can say it’s true. And I agree with it, too, but you probably figured that out.

I have to admit that the ADA kept my previous employer afloat for years longer than it should have floated. Thanks to an act of Congress every elevator in the country needed to be upgraded. Not that I disagree with the requirements that were imposed, but I did benefit financially.

(One, two, three…HAH! BUSTED!)

28

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If it makes you feel any better I’m the lsat of the line. Once I die the family name shall perish with me. So much for not breaking bones, eh?

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It was your white armor and inability to hit anything with your blaster.

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Yeah, but now I’m going to flame you for your use of the word cite. I know it doesn’t make sense to flame you but this is the pit. Kaka doo doo. There, feel the scorching heat of my wrath.

Marc

29

My position on accessible housing comes from the fact that my mother has MS and is mobility-impaired. She can walk short distances, but isn’t very steady on her feet and prefers to use a walker. Were it not for the fact that her doors are wider and the front door is flush to the ground, she’d be confined to the living room and kitchen as the house is laid out. However, when the house was built, she had the builder widen the doors to accommodate her walker and wheelchair. This added approximately zero to the cost of building the house.

I myself am grateful for ADA-required modifications to rental properties. Last March, I slipped and fell, badly injuring my hip. I was on crutches for the better part of a week. The curb-cuts in the sidewalk, the elevator, and the lever door handles became my friends, because it meant I didn’t have to lie in my apartment, not able to function.

These ADA requirements aren’t a feel-good measure done by a bunch of do-gooders. MGibson, you may be healthy today, but what if you get into an accident, as I did? What if you find yourself with a debilitating disease as my mother did? You bitch about this now, but you may need it.

Robin

30

THANK YOU, CNoteChris! The link is much appreciated.

Again, to reiterate, I’m not calling anyone a stormtrooper because they support the ADA. I do too. I just think trying to apply it to private dwellings is ridiculous.

And to those who say that it wouldn’t cost much to build a house this way – I’m ignorant of Santa Monica houses in general, but I’ve owned several in Alabama. And ALL of them (with the exception of one) had a basement which wasn’t completely underground. In other words, there were steps up to the front door, back door, and into the house from the basement garage. So, if I were to build such a house in Santa Monica, I would have to not only widen one of these doors, I’d also have to provide a ramp up to it. Even if I never used that ramp myself. What sort of ridiculous legislation would that be?

Maybe all the houses in Santa Monica are built on slabs, so this type of situation wouldn’t occur much. If not, though, I’d be pissed if I had to add a ramp to my house when I didn’t want/need it.

I’m gonna see if I can find an online version of the newspaper Bill Maher was reading from during that show.

31

For the record, I used to live in Santa Monica, and have never seen a house there with a basement. Santa Monica is a beachfront community and the soil tends to be fairly mushy and occasionally unstable. For that matter, I lived in exactly one house with a basement the entire time I lived in LA (13 years or so), and the house was fairly far inland and the house was built sometime in the 20s.

Robin

32

Let me reiterate-

I’m not saying the ADA rules are ridiculous when it comes to public buildings and streets. I’m all for it and think it’s a great idea. Even rentals should be ADA compliant for all I care.

But extending those requirements to my private home and on my private land where the benefits may never be realized?

Come on!

This is taking a good idea and going completely goofy with it for the sake of everybody’s percieved well being (An all too familiar liberal tactic, if you ask me, which is “If it’s good for some, it must be good for everyone and their brother. And if you don’t heed our warnings to protect you from yourself, wel we’ll just legislate your ass.”)
I’m touched that your worried about my physical health, and the health of my loved ones and friends, but when it comes to my home and my family, please try to contain yourselves. I, and my family, will get along just fine without you telling me what to do.

I don’t mean to be ungratefull, but you liberals are a bunch of worrying fusspots.

If it directly affected you in some way, like I had bad wiring in my house and it burned down as a result of it, I could see your concern. But whether or not my own home is handicapped accessible doesn’t affect you in the slightest.

How in the world would it?

33

That mollifies me somewhat, but I still think the proposed legislation/building code is over the top.

Appreciate the first-hand report!

34

Dudes, IF this ordinance exists at all, it ONLY applies to new construction or major, major remodeling, where, if you have halfway competant planning, the additional costs are minimal, if any.

The main objection seems to be over wheelchair ramps. Well, there are ways to deal with that that don’t look like crap. One of the easiest is to ramp up the lawn in a slope, in effect raising the ground level near the entrance. Then it looks just like any other house on a hill. In which case you aren’t doing anything to the building, but to the landscaping. Having a ramp is NOT mandatory, just an entrance people can get into. If that is done with ramps, ground slopes, lifts, or whatever it doesn’t matter.

Heck, a lot of oceanside property has the top floor at ground level on one side and two or three (or more) stories on the other side. Ditto for mountain areas. Would this work in ALL areas? Gosh, I don’t know.

Otherwise - what would your objection be to 32" doors? Grab bars in the bathroom? Any other living aids you object to?

35

I don’t really bitch about ADA requirements. Other then a few high profile stupid cases I haven’t had much cause to bitch. But I don’t think it is appropriate to make laws forcing me to make my house handi-friendly.

Marc

36

It’s still ludicrous because it imposes itself on people that have absolutely no need or reason to have their homes handicapped accessible. Not now, or in the future.

It’s not unlike forcing people to install air conditioning because, some day, when you become old and frail, it may save your life to have it.

I doubt you propose people be forced to install air conditioning, right?

There’s all kinds of things you could make people do or build into their homes to make them safer, but we don’t. We don’t because we allow people freedom to choose.

If it doesn’t directly effect you, there’s no need or reason for you to directly effect me in what I choose to have in my private abode.

37

Forcing people to install airconditioners? Yes, that’s ludicruous. Saying you have to have adequate ventilation and climate control - that’s not crazy.

Most people seem to think that ADA mandates certain specific appliances. It doesn’t. It mandates accessibility, not the means by which you achieve it.

If the windows of a building can’t open then yes, you DO have to install airconditioners, even in this part of the country (Chicago area) legendary for its winter chill.

It’s not just a safety issue, it’s a “can I get in the door” issue.

And yes, it can most certainly be taken to a ridiculous extreme. Fact is, though, that people pissed and moaned when electric lights became more or less mandatory, when flush toilets became mandatory, and a whole bunch of other shit became mandatory for housing. But I know damn few people who would even consider a house today if it didn’t have electric, indoor plumbing, and central heat. Installing electric, plumbing, and a furnance costs much more than designing in ADA requirements.

Just what, exactly, are you people afraid of? What do you think is really required by ADA?

We already covered the wheelchair ramp issue - you don’t need a ramp, just a grade level entrace. The building I currently live in was built in 1910 and it has a grade level entrace at the front door and has since the beginning - meaning the front door has been ADA compliant for 91 years! For that matter, the back door is grade level, too. Cripes, if they could do this in 1910 without thinking about it surely this is not a huge deal today?

Do I approve of imposing mandates on private citizens? No, actually I don’t. I don’t like mandatory seat belt laws. I also think you’re stupid if you don’t choose to wear one. I don’t like mandatory helmet laws for motorcycles. I also think you’re stupid if you don’t wear one. The main difference between me and most other folks these days is that I believe you have a right to be stupid.

38

CNN interviewed the author of the proposed legislation and his attitude was basically that this was a stepping stone on the way to “bigger and better things” (i.e. he was wanting to make everyone change their house to be handicapped accessable even if they’re not building a new one or doing a major remodelling job IIRC).

I don’t have a beef with the ADA, but I do have a beef when someone tells me I gotta modify my house at my expense for someone else.

This thing reminds me of the people who think that because there are children in this world, we should eliminate everything that might be harmful to children! This is stupid and absurd. The world cannot be made totally safe for children, and even if it could, it would be such a hellish nightmare that few adults could stand to live in it. (Not to mention, who’s definition of “safe for children” are you going to use? One would hate to see a world made safe for kids by a pedophile!)

My house, (trailer, actually) is NOT handicap friendly, if a handicapped person wanted to buy it, I’d happily knock a few grand off the price to help them afford the cost of making the necessary modifications, so that they could get in and out.

39

I’m in the mood for reviving threads.

Why this post escaped my radar is beyond me, but I have to comment.

I think it is.

And I especially think it is when it’s unwarranted.

What about that cabin of mine? Does that need to meet your ‘Recommended Ventilation’ standards, will I be fined? Or, will you cut me some slack because it’s, “Only a cabin”.

My guess is you’ll say, “Oh, c’mon Chris, that’s an extreme example.”. Well, yeah, it is extreme, but laws like that aren’t arbitrary. You assume people will be able to ‘bend the rules’ for cases like that made above, but I say it doesn’t always happen that way. I say, you create enough laws like that, where you assume people will use sound judgement in making a call, and soon it will be ‘technically’ illegal to walk barefoot in my yard.

Why?

Because I may step on a nail, not get a tetanus shot like I should, get severely sick and cost you money by going into a hospital to get fixed.

Wait a minute, I should get insurance so I can be safe, so, well, shit, there out to be a law for that too!

(Hello Clinton!)

O.K., o.k., I’m going off here, but my point remains.

You can’t legislate against stupidity. It’ll always happen, and any attempts to stop it will only affect those that need it the least, the smarties.

And dammit, when it comes to costing regular people like me time and money, I say in legislation like this, the benefit hardly outweighs the gain.

40

Why the hell do you wink on this? The ADA exclusion of transsexuals and transvestites is not even remotely humorous. It’s vicious, mean-spirited and nasty, and has done a world of harm for no good reason.

Transsexuals are frequently disabled by virtue of being transsexuals (because of profound depression); a transsexual who is discriminated against because of depression related to being transsexual cannot raise an ADA claim because of this prohibition.

Furthermore, if a disabled transsexual or transvestite is discriminated against because of nonrelated disability, this exclusion is likely to be used to deny that individual relief.

Finally, note that transsexualism and transvesticism are lumped in with pedophiles, alcoholics, and drug abusers. This is a vicious branding, making it seem like transvestites and transsexuals are no better than child molesters, fully deserving of all the scorn society can heap on them. (To be fair, this exclusion also originally listed homosexuals, but that was eliminated before the bill became law.)

The exclusions of transsexuals from relief under the ADA has already been used by the courts to hold that transsexual discrimination is not gender discrimination and as such not prohibited by Title VII.

This little tidbit of legislative nastiness is right up there with the clause in the Civil Rights Act that prohibits Communists from making any claim under that act for discrimination (whether or not related to being a Communist), and is one of the finest examples of the legislative legacy of Senator Jesse Helms, who introduced and championed the amendment that made it law.