# Adam Carolla's Take on Occupy Wall Street **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 2, 2011, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adam-carollas-take-on-occupy-wall-street/604784 "2011-12-02T02:34:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adam-carollas-take-on-occupy-wall-street/604784/161 "2011-12-06T20:52:53Z")
> [@2sense](#): > > It’s in the fourth bullet starting at the bottom of the first page and carrying over. The thinking is that the cost of the tax should be figured into the rent. So too the unavoidable uncertainty of the rent not being paid. I’m surprised you have never heard of this common practice. What exactly is common practice? Again, I understand that renters pay property taxes indirectly, but is the CTJ crediting all property taxes to the renter, even in cases where there is a government subsidy? What is CTJ’s methodology, because all they say is that, “state and local property taxes affect everyone who owns or rents a home (the tax is passed on to renters in the form of higher rents).” I know it affects everyone, I am wondering how they are accounting for that. ---
**Author:** ![MemoryLeak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6f9a4e/32.png) [@MemoryLeak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MemoryLeak)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adam-carollas-take-on-occupy-wall-street/604784/162 "2011-12-06T21:02:43Z")
> [@2sense](#): > > My first instinct is to respond that investors and executives of major US corporations would earn a lot less per year without publicly funded roads to transport their employees and goods over. What each gets from government is a different question from what each pays for it. And we would all be subsistence farmers (and I’m pretty sure I would have starved to death years ago or be someone’s slave). > [@2sense](#): > > Assuming you convince me, how large of a discrepancy are we talking here? You’d need a lot of examples like that to build up to “being incredibly misleading”. Particularly when CTJ’s point is that the people at the high end don’t pay much more than the people in the middle (who aren’t getting direct transfers). Using CTJ’s $25,000 for the bottom 40%, I find from the IRS tax stat site that that equates to $700 billion (I didn’t include returns with no adjusted since that figure is -$199 billion). From [here](http://www.gpoaccess.gov/usbudget/fy11/sheets/hist03z2.xls) I get $130 billion in housing and food/nutrition assistance and $154 billion in other (who knows, but we know it’s not SSA, unemployment, retirement, etc…, since they have their own line items). This results in upping the income by somewhere between 19% and 40%. And this does not include state aid. I find it misleading (especially since I was uber-conservative with my assistance numbers). ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2011, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adam-carollas-take-on-occupy-wall-street/604784/163 "2011-12-07T06:16:54Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Well, that may or may not be true. Your perception is not a fact. > > But anyway, what makes you think that the economic environment today is the same as it was in the 60s, when there was much less global competition? Things change. I see no reason to think that the way we did things 50 years ago is the way we should do them today. > > Hell, maybe CEOs should make less than they did in the 60s. If only there was some mechanism for determining the worth of something… Right because the market prices everything perfectly all the time. Which is why American CEOs are worth so much more than CEOs from other countries. They’re just worth more. ---
**Author:** ![2sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e47774/32.png) [@2sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2sense)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2011, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adam-carollas-take-on-occupy-wall-street/604784/164 "2011-12-07T07:42:29Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > What exactly is common practice? Again, I understand that renters pay property taxes indirectly, but is the CTJ crediting all property taxes to the renter, even in cases where there is a government subsidy? What is CTJ’s methodology, because all they say is that, “state and local property taxes affect everyone who owns or rents a home (the tax is passed on to renters in the form of higher rents).” I know it affects everyone, I am wondering how they are accounting for that. You asked for it! > [@](#): > > Rental property taxes were computed by imputing a property value to each renter by multiplying rent by a factor. These factors were calculated using state assessment data or, in some cases, research conducted in the state. The quality of the data for this purpose varied widely among states. For states where data was not available, we used the average factor for the other states. Rental property provisions are generally calculated in the personal income tax model since they using rent data from the matched data file. > > [http://www.itepnet.org/about/ITEP\_tax\_model\_full.php](http://www.itepnet.org/about/ITEP_tax_model_full.php) I take it from that that they are calculating the property taxes on the rental units and crediting the renters with paying them. It seems to me that this is the most useful way to go about it. It seems to me that the most useful way to calculate subsidies is as income for the renters, as **MemoryLeak** has done. > [@MemoryLeak](#): > > Using CTJ’s $25,000 for the bottom 40%, I find from the IRS tax stat site that that equates to $700 billion (I didn’t include returns with no adjusted since that figure is -$199 billion). From [here](http://www.gpoaccess.gov/usbudget/fy11/sheets/hist03z2.xls) I get $130 billion in housing and food/nutrition assistance and $154 billion in other (who knows, but we know it’s not SSA, unemployment, retirement, etc…, since they have their own line items). This results in upping the income by somewhere between 19% and 40%. And this does not include state aid. > > I find it misleading (especially since I was uber-conservative with my assistance numbers). I don’t see how you are reaching the seven hundred billion figure. Could you perhaps go over that a bit more slowly? But if you don’t want to get into it further I understand. I believe you do have a point here. Direct subsidies should be counted and are not. To some extent or another (and not by an insignificant amount) the CTJ chart is overestimating the % of income paid in taxes by the first and second quintiles. I’ll make sure to note that whenever I use the chart to point out that the superrich are paying about the same percentage in taxes as the middle class. ---
**Author:** ![MemoryLeak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6f9a4e/32.png) [@MemoryLeak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MemoryLeak)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2011, 9:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adam-carollas-take-on-occupy-wall-street/604784/165 "2011-12-07T09:22:49Z")
> [@2sense](#): > > I’ll make sure to note that whenever I use the chart to point out that the superrich are paying about the same percentage in taxes as the middle class. But it appears CTJ is playing fast and loose with all the numbers. For example, when you go to the IRS statistics site, it’s pretty easy to find that the total income tax as a percent of AGI is about 24% for $200k-$500k, rises to 29-30% for incomes above that until you get to $10,000,000 at which point it drops to 26%. So for the high incomes, CTJ is off by as much as a factor of 2. I don’t see why I would have any more confidence in what they’re throwing out for state numbers. When we tax plan, our rule of thumb is 40% to somebody (federal and whatever states we’re operating in). And that doesn’t include any of the tax we pay on behalf of others (the biggest being the employer side of FICA, which I’ll bet CTJ wants to credit to the employees and I’m viewing as a straight-up expense). ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2011, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adam-carollas-take-on-occupy-wall-street/604784/166 "2011-12-07T23:55:20Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Tell that to Bernie Madoff, Martha Stewart and [these guys:](http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505125_162-28244805/top-10-ceos-in-prison-whyd-they-do-it/) > > That’s only the top 10. That is wonderful to see, I think one of the richest men in the US was recently arrested for committing fraud which is great to see (the rule of law is awesome when applied properly). However you also have stories like this, which compare the treatment of the two groups. > **[My Occupy LA Arrest, by Patrick Meighan](http://myoccupylaarrest.blogspot.com/?mid=5490)** Or issues like this where the federal government is trying to reach an agreement with state attorney generals to not pursue or prosecute crimes by the financial sector. [http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/22/business/schneiderman-is-said-to-face-pressure-to-back-bank-deal.html?pagewanted=all](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/22/business/schneiderman-is-said-to-face-pressure-to-back-bank-deal.html?pagewanted=all) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2011, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adam-carollas-take-on-occupy-wall-street/604784/167 "2011-12-08T00:07:08Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > That is wonderful to see, I think one of the richest men in the US was recently arrested for committing fraud which is great to see (the rule of law is awesome when applied properly). However you also have stories like this, which compare the treatment of the two groups. > > [My Occupy LA Arrest, by Patrick Meighan](http://myoccupylaarrest.blogspot.com/?mid=5490) > > Or issues like this where the federal government is trying to reach an agreement with state attorney generals to not pursue or prosecute crimes by the financial sector. > > [http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/22/business/schneiderman-is-said-to-face-pressure-to-back-bank-deal.html?pagewanted=all](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/22/business/schneiderman-is-said-to-face-pressure-to-back-bank-deal.html?pagewanted=all) So, you are or are not moving the goalpost? I’m not even sure what point you’re trying to make with your first cite, but I don’t see how your second cite is any different from a run-of-the-mill plea deal that is SOP at levels of policing. And your characterization of what is happening is deceptive, as it implies that no criminal action is being taken when the feds just want to be the ones doing it instead of the states. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2011, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adam-carollas-take-on-occupy-wall-street/604784/168 "2011-12-08T00:19:11Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > However you also have stories like this, which compare the treatment of the two groups. > > [My Occupy LA Arrest, by Patrick Meighan](http://myoccupylaarrest.blogspot.com/?mid=5490) Jesus! I think anyone who wants to make any comment about the Occupy movement should be required to read this. I’ve heard the “30 tons of trash” meme floated about before, by folks who want to paint the occupy movement as a bunch of dirty hippies. It’s interesting to note that much of this “trash” was the result of the LAPD destroying people’s property and throwing it around. On edit: I see that even after reading about the horrific treatment of non-violent protesters, some will continue to hand wave it away. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2011, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adam-carollas-take-on-occupy-wall-street/604784/169 "2011-12-08T03:37:59Z")
Speaking on behalf of the OWS movement is uncertain at best, but I would hazard a guess that, by and large, they are less upset about particular fraudsters being slammed up at Club Fed than they are with non-carnal persons, persons not embodied in the traditional form of meat. Corporations are persons, we are assured, a miracle that makes transubstantiation look like chicken feed. Recent reports of frollicking shenanigans with mortgage documentation, for example. Is that breaking the law? Most likely. But how do you bust Bank America, or CitiGroup? …the scence is Cellblock AAA, Debt Row. A mournful harmonica weeps in the background as the far door opens and the Objectivist priest and the turnkey walk slowly down the row of cells, and then stop… “CitiGroup? It’s time. No call from the President, so…” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2011, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adam-carollas-take-on-occupy-wall-street/604784/170 "2011-12-08T05:10:52Z")
No miracles needed. “Person” is simply a term of art. It’s quite possible that the computer you are using to type your snark on would not exist without the concept of a corporation. Or did you build it yourself with parts made from non-corporate entities? ---
**Author:** ![2sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e47774/32.png) [@2sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2sense)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2011, 8:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adam-carollas-take-on-occupy-wall-street/604784/171 "2011-12-08T08:59:57Z")
> [@MemoryLeak](#): > > But it appears CTJ is playing fast and loose with all the numbers. For example, when you go to the IRS statistics site, it’s pretty easy to find that the total income tax as a percent of AGI is about 24% for $200k-$500k, rises to 29-30% for incomes above that until you get to $10,000,000 at which point it drops to 26%. So for the high incomes, CTJ is off by as much as a factor of 2. I don’t see why I would have any more confidence in what they’re throwing out for state numbers. > > When we tax plan, our rule of thumb is 40% to somebody (federal and whatever states we’re operating in). And that doesn’t include any of the tax we pay on behalf of others (the biggest being the employer side of FICA, which I’ll bet CTJ wants to credit to the employees and I’m viewing as a straight-up expense). It seems to me I’ve gone as far as I can here. While I think I’m following what you are saying I just don’t have the expertise to evaluate it. Perhaps in a while I’ll start a new thread specifically on this that might draw in more knowledgeable people with differing viewpoints. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2011, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adam-carollas-take-on-occupy-wall-street/604784/172 "2011-12-08T17:47:33Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > No miracles needed. “Person” is simply a term of art. It’s quite possible that the computer you are using to type your snark on would not exist without the concept of a corporation. Or did you build it yourself with parts made from non-corporate entities? Don’t lower yourself to my level, **John** , its beneath you. And worse, you’re not any good at it. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2011, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adam-carollas-take-on-occupy-wall-street/604784/173 "2011-12-08T19:43:05Z")
Now, since we are done with that… Back to your post pointing out the jail time corporadoes have received. Clearly, this is offered as a rebuttal point, but to what, perzackly? Is your point that justice is served fairly and equally to all before the law? Or is it simply that you wish to apprise us pointy-heads that, no, corporadoes are not wholly free from the vexations of the law, because look! some guys actually went to prison! Or what? Upstanding citizen that you are, you may not know that prison isn’t necessarily prison. White collar criminals, by and large, don’t go to prison such as is commonly thought of. Its a gated community with far stricter security than they may be used to. Like a summer camp where you can’t just go home, even if your write your Mom. “Club Fed”. to use the parlance. I mean, just try to get a decent white sauce! Be that as it may, if your point is that the law falls with equal weight on the wealthy, that would take a lot more work. Life is short, and you have better things to do. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2011, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adam-carollas-take-on-occupy-wall-street/604784/174 "2011-12-08T23:16:01Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Don’t lower yourself to my level, **John** , its beneath you. And worse, you’re not any good at it. Ha. Don’t flatter yourself, amigo. > [@](#): > > Back to your post pointing out the jail time corporadoes have received. Clearly, this is offered as a rebuttal point, but to what, perzackly? I quoted the exact point I was rebutting. > [@](#): > > Be that as it may, if your point is that the law falls with equal weight on the wealthy, that would take a lot more work. Life is short, and you have better things to do. That was not my point. I made my point in the post. No need to speculate beyond what was written. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adam-carollas-take-on-occupy-wall-street/604784.md?page=8)