# Additive effects of radio-frequency radiation? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 1, 2012, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/additive-effects-of-radio-frequency-radiation/617461 "2012-04-01T08:43:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![RadMan57](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/41988e/32.png) [@RadMan57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RadMan57)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/additive-effects-of-radio-frequency-radiation/617461/21 "2012-04-02T13:42:37Z")
I think everyone should also remember the inverse square law of radiation. When you double the distance away from a source (in the far field) the power level becomes 1/4th. So, stadiums of phones really don’t add up equally because most are too far away to even add up to anyone’s exposure. Similarly, Smart meters were tested by an acknowledged expert in the field, Ric Tell, and he tested them in a field with gangs of them transmitting. Google “EPRI ltron Smart Meters” if you’d like to _learn_ more.🙂 I won’t go as far as to say there can be no hazard without a thermal effect, but that really is where the level of research, to date, is at. Think of the lives Cell phones have saved, as opposed to _potential_ risks, if any. My personal feeling is that everyone has many more important things to worry about, but hey, that’s just me. ---
**Author:** ![ZenBeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/3ab097/32.png) [@ZenBeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZenBeam)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/additive-effects-of-radio-frequency-radiation/617461/22 "2012-04-02T21:18:53Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > Sure. Do you want that before or after the study they release that says the power poles they use aren’t going to come to life and stab you up? I mean, they must have dozens of those bad boys out there. How about before they go and install 30 SmartMeters just outside **Reply** ’s bedroom? It’s not unreasonable to ask the question, and all this talk about ionizing radiation is just avoiding giving an answer. PG&E has mostly answered, based on the links I gave. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/additive-effects-of-radio-frequency-radiation/617461/23 "2012-04-02T22:26:14Z")
> [@ZenBeam](#): > > all this talk about ionizing radiation is just avoiding giving an answer. No, it isn’t. It’s groundwork fundamental to understanding any correct answer. ---
**Author:** ![ZenBeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/3ab097/32.png) [@ZenBeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZenBeam)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/additive-effects-of-radio-frequency-radiation/617461/24 "2012-04-02T22:31:31Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > No, it isn’t. It’s groundwork fundamental to understanding any correct answer. This is just flat wrong. It’s so far away in frequency from 900 MHz that it’s irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![ZenBeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/3ab097/32.png) [@ZenBeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZenBeam)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/additive-effects-of-radio-frequency-radiation/617461/25 "2012-04-02T23:11:47Z")
Cripes, look at the [absorption spectrum](http://people.seas.harvard.edu/~jones/es151/gallery/images/absorp_water.html) of something as simple as water. Why would anyone think the behavior to the left of the yellow bar has any thing to do with the behavior to the far right? The mechanisms of absorption are completely different. Or look at the [dielectric constant of water](http://www.martin.chaplin.btinternet.co.uk/microwave.html). The far left is 3 THz, and 900 MHz is a little bit in from the right. Just over that range, water has a completely different behavior. Ionizing radiation is close to three orders of magnitude to the left of that chart. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/additive-effects-of-radio-frequency-radiation/617461/26 "2012-04-02T23:38:38Z")
> [@](#): > > This is just flat wrong. It’s so far away in frequency from 900 MHz that it’s irrelevant. Yes, exactly, it’s irrelevant. That’s what everyone else is saying. With ionization being irrelevant, the only remaining mechanism for harm is heating, and the power’s far too low for that. ---
**Author:** ![ZenBeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/3ab097/32.png) [@ZenBeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZenBeam)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2012, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/additive-effects-of-radio-frequency-radiation/617461/27 "2012-04-03T01:20:59Z")
That’s some awfully twisted logic… Anyway, with regards to “the only remaining mechanism for harm is heating”, I don’t think you know that. Here’s the abstract for [Mechanisms for electric and magnetic fields effects on biological cells](http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/login.jsp?tp=&arnumber=1532328&url=http%3A%2F%2Fieeexplore.ieee.org%2Fxpls%2Fabs_all.jsp%3Farnumber%3D1532328), for example: > [@](#): > > The application of electric and magnetic fields to biological systems can lead to changes that occur through a variety of physical mechanisms. These include changes in the ionic and molecular currents, changes in temperature due to heating, the lifetimes of free radicals, and the orientation of molecules. The importance of these mechanisms is a function of the biological system, the applied frequency, amplitude, and the length of exposure. These physical mechanisms, in turn, lead to changes in chemical reaction rates, molecular bindings to membranes, signaling between cells, and changes in the biology by way of changes in growth rates and cell functions, etc. In this paper, some ways in which measurements can be made to help sort out the physics leading to some of observed biological changes are described. That’s kind of general. Here’s a very specific paper, [Radiofrequency magnetic field effects on chemical reaction yields](http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0009261400009805), but where the abstract gives some results: > [@](#): > > The influence of radiofrequency magnetic fields (1–80 MHz) on the yields of radical recombination reactions is investigated. A decrease in the recombination probability of radical ion pairs (monitored via exciplex fluorescence) is detected when the radiofrequency matches energy-level splittings arising from hyperfine interactions in the radicals. The dependence of the oscillating magnetic field effect (OMFE) spectrum on radiofrequency field strength and hyperfine coupling constants is presented for several reaction partners. The experimental studies are supported by theoretical simulations of recombination yields based on the radical pair mechanism (RPM). That’s neither ionization nor heating. ---
**Author:** ![Reply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/reply/32/15952_2.png) [@Reply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reply)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2012, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/additive-effects-of-radio-frequency-radiation/617461/28 "2012-04-03T03:14:40Z")
Just wanted to jump back in and say that I’ve been following this thread with a mixture of excitement and bafflement. Thank you all for a fascinating discussion; this is probably the best summary of the issues I’ve been able to find. If I’m understanding this right, RF radiation is non-ionizing and decreases greatly in power over distance, and seems unlikely to be able to hurt living things unless it’s outright burning them (what most of you are saying). HOWEVER… there may be mechanisms _not fully understood_ through which even non-ionizing radiation can affect biology (what ZenBeam is saying). Is that an accurate summation thus far? ---
**Author:** ![space\_loner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6de8d8/32.png) [@space\_loner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/space_loner)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2012, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/additive-effects-of-radio-frequency-radiation/617461/29 "2012-04-03T18:31:04Z")
Sure, also add to that there is no reason to believe those “not fully understood” mechanisms have any chance of occurring at the magnitude of radiation you might encounter. ---
**Author:** ![space\_loner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6de8d8/32.png) [@space\_loner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/space_loner)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2012, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/additive-effects-of-radio-frequency-radiation/617461/30 "2012-04-03T18:50:27Z")
@ZenBeam Your articles are talking about magnetic fields, not the effects of radiation. No amount of wifi and cellphone exposure produces a magnetic field remotely as strong as pointing a hairdryer at your face. Albeit there being no sound scientific basis for the magnetic fields we encounter in regular life causing us any harm, one thing you can be sure of is that if they DID, foil wallpaper offers no protection against them. ---
**Author:** ![Reply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/reply/32/15952_2.png) [@Reply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reply)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2012, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/additive-effects-of-radio-frequency-radiation/617461/31 "2012-04-03T21:50:26Z")
So I’m looking at some reports, and what I’m finding is still as unclear as ever. A [1998 study](http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com.ezproxy.humboldt.edu/doi/10.1002/%28SICI%291521-186X%281998%2919:1%3C1::AID-BEM1%3E3.0.CO;2-5/abstract;jsessionid=72B0006E1224DCDDBCAD2EFC23BD8919.d03t02) finds no major effects but calls for more research. A [2007 paper](http://www.sciencedirect.com.ezproxy.humboldt.edu/science/article/pii/S0753332207002909) says: > [@](#): > > Health endpoints reported to be associated with ELF and/or RF include childhood leukaemia, brain tumours, genotoxic effects, neurological effects and neurodegenerative diseases, immune system deregulation, allergic and inflammatory responses, breast cancer, miscarriage and some cardiovascular effects. The 2007 paper was in “Biomedicine & Pharmacotherapy”, which might be a peer-reviewed journal, but its authors also self-published the non-peer-reviewed “[Bioinitiative Report](http://www.bioinitiative.org/freeaccess/index.htm)” which [Wikipedia says is heavily criticized](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BioInitiative_Report#Criticism). And then a [2011 WHO report](http://www.iarc.fr/en/media-centre/pr/2011/pdfs/pr208_E.pdf) finds cell phone use to be “possibly” linked to a type of brain cancer, but stated that the evidence was “limited” and “inadequate” and again calls for more research. If that study’s any indication and power levels are a factor, I wouldn’t necessarily worry too much about a single phone or Smart Meter, but if the numbers in this thread are accurate, I might start to be concerned about spending 8 hours a day asleep 5 feet away from a bank of – I just counted – 35 of them. _shrug_ I’m not usually the paranoid type, but I at least want my risks to be informed, calculated ones. So is it still fair to say “the science is still out”, or am I missing something that more conclusively demonstrates the risk is nonexistent? I’m not equipped to research this on my own, lacking even a basic understanding of electromagneticism OR biology, much less interactions between the two ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Reply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/reply/32/15952_2.png) [@Reply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reply)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2012, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/additive-effects-of-radio-frequency-radiation/617461/32 "2012-04-03T22:06:01Z")
I just spoke to PG&E on the phone about this specific scenario, and they said: - The electric meters transmit about once an hour each for a total of about 45 seconds per meter per day - The gas meters transmit once a day - It’s “very unlikely” for them to transmit all at once, even if they’re all transmitting on the hour, but the representative couldn’t say whether that was by design or by coincidence So probably still nothing to worry about in this particular case, not because RF is necessarily harmless, but because even 35 of them aren’t transmitting together for very long periods of time. ---
**Author:** ![ZenBeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/3ab097/32.png) [@ZenBeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZenBeam)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2012, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/additive-effects-of-radio-frequency-radiation/617461/33 "2012-04-03T22:19:05Z")
> [@space\_loner](#): > > Your articles are talking about magnetic fields, not the effects of radiation. No amount of wifi and cellphone exposure produces a magnetic field remotely as strong as pointing a hairdryer at your face. The first article references both electric and magnetic fields, and the second is still sufficient for its intended purpose, showing that ionization and heating are not the only mechanisms. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/additive-effects-of-radio-frequency-radiation/617461.md?page=1)