# Addressing Royalty **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 11, 2008, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/addressing-royalty/472249 "2008-11-11T21:44:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/addressing-royalty/472249/21 "2008-11-13T13:22:30Z")
> [@WotNot](#): > > By all means, should you ever meet the Queen, feel free not to bow: but let it be because it’s a foolish old tradition (snip)Please don’t make a political statement out of a simple matter of etiquette. Aren’t these the same thing? ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/addressing-royalty/472249/22 "2008-11-13T13:24:41Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Technically speaking there is no “England” it was abolished in 1707 and replaced withe Great Britain which itself was abolished in 1801 and replaced with the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, which renamed itself in 1927 to the United Kingdom of Great Britain and _Northern_ Ireland. > > There is a _legal judistriction_ of England and Wales, which comprises the territory of the former Kingdom of England as it existed on April 30 1707. Ahem, there most certainly is an ‘England’. The United Kingdom is exactly that, a political union of kingdoms - we never ‘abolished’ the separate nations. I am both English AND British, thank you very much. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/addressing-royalty/472249/23 "2008-11-13T13:26:13Z")
> [@sciurophobic](#): > > What about that other protocol rule, that you’re not supposed to speak to the Queen unless she addresses you first? If I were invited to a party at Windor Castle could I wander up to her an hour after the initial introduction and start up a conversation? Or do I have to wait again for her to speak first? By protocol, you have to wait for her to speak to you. Although I guess it depends on how official the party is. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/addressing-royalty/472249/24 "2008-11-13T13:32:59Z")
> [@Furious\_Marmot](#): > > For argument’s sake let’s use the queen of England. Could I get away with “Mrs. Windsor”, or “Ms. Queen”, or “Madame Queen”, or just “Ma’am” (I use that for pretty much all women anyways). What would happen? Is there some other title I could go with? I’m not trying to be rude, so “Queenie” or “Bess” would be right out. She seems like a pretty nice gal, but I’m not going to compromise my principals if we’re waiting for the same bus or something. Nothing would ‘happen’ - you aren’t going to get dragged off to the Tower of London. I’m sure the Queen has met a gazillion people over the years who haven’t used the correct protocol and I’m quite sure she doesn’t lose sleep over it. Seeing as you’re not trying to be rude, the safest thing would be to call her ‘Ma’am’, which is what everyone is expected to call her anyway after the initial ‘Your Majesty’. However, I don’t see why you’re getting your knickers in a twist about it. It’s no more deferential than calling Mr Bush "Mr President’ or calling my college head of department ‘Professor’. Different job, different job title. Calling her anything else, such as ‘Mrs Windsor’ would just make you look rude or ignorant. Your choice. ---
**Author:** ![WotNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e19b73/32.png) [@WotNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WotNot)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/addressing-royalty/472249/25 "2008-11-13T14:44:50Z")
> [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > Aren’t these the same thing? Aren’t what the same thing? If you mean “Etiquette” = “foolish old tradition”, then I’d say no, on the whole. If you mean that abstaining from doing a thing expected by custom, because you think it’s silly, is – in itself – a political statement; well… possibly. It would be a wider definition of the word “political” than I was thinking of, though. ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/addressing-royalty/472249/26 "2008-11-13T14:54:20Z")
I meant that they would be tantamount to the same thing. You’d be making a statement about your beliefs by declining to participate in protocol. Me, I don’t think I’d have much choice if I met the queen but to bow even though I’m vaguely a republican, what with me being one of her employees and all. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/addressing-royalty/472249/27 "2008-11-13T15:04:38Z")
> [@SanVito](#): > > However, I don’t see why you’re getting your knickers in a twist about it. It’s no more deferential than calling Mr Bush "Mr President’ or calling my college head of department ‘Professor’. Different job, different job title. Well, it kind of is more deferential. “Professor” and “Mr. President” are job titles, and nothing else. But “Majesty” is a word with meaning outside of its use as an address - “The quality of being impressive and great.” And the form of address came from the word, not vice-versa. Don’t get me wrong - if I met the queen, I’d follow the rules. If I thought I couldn’t, I’d decline the opportunity to meet her (since I doubt many people meet her without knowing it ahead of time), rather than disregard the rules, just because I don’t agree with them. [hijack] Isn’t there a story out there about a Nobel prize winner who, after learning that you cannot turn your back on the King of Norway and had to back up a few steps after receiving the prize, planned to hop up the steps backwards? ISTR he was disappointed to find this was no longer court protocol, and it was OK to turn around and proceed up the steps normally. ---
**Author:** ![42fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/4/b487fb/32.png) [@42fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/42fish)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/addressing-royalty/472249/28 "2008-11-13T15:44:07Z")
> [@SanVito](#): > > By protocol, you have to wait for her to speak to you. Although I guess it depends on how official the party is. "Hey, your Majesty, those pigs in a blanket were meant for _everyone_!’ ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/addressing-royalty/472249/29 "2008-11-13T18:53:01Z")
> [@42fish](#): > > "Hey, your Majesty, those pigs in a blanket were meant for _everyone_!’ By that stage in the party, I’m thinking "Hey, MA’AM, those pigs in a blanket were meant for _everyone_!’ would be the correct protocol ---
**Author:** ![Furious\_Marmot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/dfb087/32.png) [@Furious\_Marmot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Furious_Marmot)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/addressing-royalty/472249/30 "2008-11-13T19:22:58Z")
> [@SanVito](#): > > However, I don’t see why you’re getting your knickers in a twist about it. It’s no more deferential than calling Mr Bush "Mr President’ or calling my college head of department ‘Professor’. Different job, different job title. Who’s getting up in arms here? Not me. This was a lighthearted bit of fun revolving around a silly question about a silly institution. Nevertheless, there have been more than a few interesting factual answers, including yours. For the record, I see no reason to use “Mr. President” or “Professor”. Nor do I or any of my coworkers call the CEO of our company “Chairman” or “Founder”, and he is a billionaire who very nearly has the power of life and death over us. We don’t call most other people by their job titles, why this select few? In college, “Dr. XYZ” always worked, and it has the advantage of being the person’s name. I would like to know if anybody has any information about addressing other high and mighty folks, though. ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/addressing-royalty/472249/31 "2008-11-13T21:13:42Z")
[Try this for starters.](http://www.amazon.co.uk/Titles-Forms-Address-Guide-Correct/dp/0713683252/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1226610796&sr=8-1) ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/addressing-royalty/472249/32 "2008-11-13T22:04:43Z")
> [@SanVito](#): > > Ahem, there most certainly is an ‘England’. It is my understanding that there shall always be one. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/addressing-royalty/472249/33 "2008-11-13T23:21:50Z")
When in doubt of the correct form of address, I always use “excellency.” I have no idea who really rates “excellency,” but it seems to work for ambassadors, minor princes and so on. ---
**Author:** ![PopeJewish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@PopeJewish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PopeJewish)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/addressing-royalty/472249/34 "2008-11-13T23:34:08Z")
> [@Furious\_Marmot](#): > > For the record, I see no reason to use “Mr. President” or “Professor”. Nor do I or any of my coworkers call the CEO of our company “Chairman” or “Founder”, and he is a billionaire who very nearly has the power of life and death over us. We don’t call most other people by their job titles, why this select few? In college, “Dr. XYZ” always worked, and it has the advantage of being the person’s name. > > I would like to know if anybody has any information about addressing other high and mighty folks, though. “Dr” is another title, earned by getting a PhD (or MD, I guess, though we all know those aren’t REAL doctors 😛 ) In college I just referred to my professors as “mr. xyz” or “mrs. xyz” and that’s how they introduced themselves to us, so I guess it fit. I’m from california, though, we do things more laid back there (hell, I’ve been to a wedding in sandals before, and I wasn’t the only one!) Back to Japan, I know most of the formality in dealing with the Emperor was dropped after WWII (when the emperor basically passed the buck to Gen. Morimoto (I think?) and said “oh yea, that war thing? his idea! Your sons/husbands/fathers didn’t actually die for me, they died for that guy!” which pissed off a lot of people, understandably) and in fact half the people I talk to around here (Toyama) don’t even know who the current Emperor is! (It’s Akihito, for those keeping score). But there’s defniitely a lot of severe-angle bowing that takes place, and a lot of formality around the visits. That said, formality is inherent in the Japanese culture in all walks of life, so it’s no surprise ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/addressing-royalty/472249/35 "2008-11-14T01:05:52Z")
> [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > [Try this for starters.](http://www.amazon.co.uk/Titles-Forms-Address-Guide-Correct/dp/0713683252/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1226610796&sr=8-1) Or perhaps you would like a free resource with actual information you can have **[right now](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forms_of_Address_in_the_United_Kingdom)**. Imagine, you can actually get a lot of free information on the web, instead of sending $19.95 and waiting six weeks for delivery. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/addressing-royalty/472249/36 "2008-11-14T01:55:43Z")
“Your Holy Worshipfulness” on first reference; “sweetheart” thereafter. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 9:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/addressing-royalty/472249/37 "2008-11-14T09:04:08Z")
> [@SanVito](#): > > Ahem, there most certainly is an ‘England’. The United Kingdom is exactly that, a political union of kingdoms - we never ‘abolished’ the separate nations. I am both English AND British, thank you very much. United Kingdom was until 1999 a unitary state, with one parliament. The Kingdom of Scotland, Kingdom of England do not exist anymore, the UK (via Great Britain) is their successor. The existance of state is quite an important concept in international law; if the case was as you said, then the UK would be in no different position from NATO or the EU (which are also political union). There is a cultural region called “England” a legal judistriction called “England and Wales”. But there is no political entity called “England”. ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/addressing-royalty/472249/38 "2008-11-14T10:08:43Z")
> [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > Or perhaps you would like a free resource with actual information you can have **[right now](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forms_of_Address_in_the_United_Kingdom)**. Imagine, you can actually get a lot of free information on the web, instead of sending $19.95 and waiting six weeks for delivery. 🙂 Well excuse me for trying to be helpful. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/addressing-royalty/472249/39 "2008-11-14T11:57:28Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > United Kingdom was until 1999 a unitary state, with one parliament. The Kingdom of Scotland, Kingdom of England do not exist anymore, the UK (via Great Britain) is their successor. The existance of state is quite an important concept in international law; if the case was as you said, then the UK would be in no different position from NATO or the EU (which are also political union). > > There is a cultural region called “England” a legal judistriction called “England and Wales”. But there is no political entity called “England”. I think we can all agree that the United Kingdom is a pretty unique political State, in no way comparable to the EU, as a collection of nation states, or the US as a collection of non-nation states. The Government itself describes the UK as ‘countries within a country’. Whilst they may be governed as a group, they are still viewed as separate countries by the populace. Quote from the offical website of the Prime Minister: “The United Kingdom is made up of four **countries** : England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Its full name is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.” England is more than a cultural ‘region’. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/addressing-royalty/472249/40 "2008-11-14T12:24:38Z")
^ Check out Art 1 Treaty of the Union 1706, that is the clause that created Great Britain expressly created a new state. The fact that the old states retained distinct identities is a different and irrelevent matter entirely. Or I better sue the Inns of Court School of Law in London, for my money back, they taught me bullshit? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/addressing-royalty/472249.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/addressing-royalty/472249.md?page=3)