# Adoption: Why say Mom and Dad? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 19, 2010, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506 "2010-01-19T02:33:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/221 "2010-01-20T22:55:01Z")
> [@SmellMyWort](#): > > What do you propose society do with unwanted babies? Do you think an orphanage is preferable to adoptive parents? She wants those babies to be **killed**. > [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Try to keep things straight. What I said is that if a authorian government prevented me from getting a safe abortion I would have no alternative, but to hide a pregnancy and kill a newborn. A significant factor in that would be the belief that genetic ties are important enough that life without them may not be worth living. Read this quote carefully - all that’s being banned is abortion. Adoption is still allowed - however **ZPG** doesn’t even consider it among the list of options worth considering, at least not while murdering the baby remains an option. And thanks, **pedescribe**! ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/222 "2010-01-20T23:01:21Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Read this quote carefully - all that’s being banned is abortion. Adoption is still allowed - however **ZPG** doesn’t even consider it among the list of options worth considering, at least not while murdering the baby remains an option. She’s doing the child a favor by rescuing it from a genetic tieless life. Who would want to live that way? ---
**Author:** ![Otara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a88e4f/32.png) [@Otara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otara)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/223 "2010-01-20T23:18:35Z")
“All that means is that the government officials there like to be bribed by rich foreigners, it doesn’t mean the babies were stolen. They were adopted out of orphanages, like babies all over the world (such as myself).” There are stolen babies though and various abuses that have occurred in international adoptions for instance, which is why the Hague convention came into being. The drive to be a parent is extremely powerful and people are times have been willing to do some fairly horrendous things in order to be parents or be complicit in them. We also have different terms in Australia for voluntary vs involuntary adoption, permanent care is where the child is taken away by the court. While there are clearcut ‘the child would be dead or seriously harmed’ cases, there are others where things can get a bit greyer and unfortunately we’re just having to make the best guess possible based on clinical knowledge, generally after a long period of trying to make things work first admittedly. That doesnt mean you throw out the baby with the bathwater though (sorry!). In the next 48 hours or so I’ll be finding out if we’re the one of the 3 options the biological/relinquishing mother has to choose between, so this thread is surprisingly timely. Otara ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/224 "2010-01-20T23:29:17Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > The really nifty thing here is that you have **UTTERLY FAILED** to demonstrate that this bizarre characterization applies to the class of “adoptive parents” in any reasonable way. Your failure to do this is probably based in the fact that it’s batshit insane, and utterly false in every conceivable way. > > Your argument seems to be based mostly in hallucination, based on a few outlier cases that are completely unrepresentative of the class of adoptive relationships as a whole. It’s approimately as reasonable, rational, and accurate as arguing that all humans are named Willie Nelson, and “proving” this point by pointing at one or two guys who are in fact humans named Willie Nelson and extrapolating from them to the entire human race in grand fallacous fashion. > > Let’s put this really, really simply. You have no idea how adoption works in the real world. Your assumptions about it are flat wrong, and _so_ wrong that it makes you appear completely unhinged. You are probably _not_ completely unhinged, but your opinions on this matter make you appear this way. You should probably educate yourself as to how things work in reality in order to be able to present yourself better. I think this cuts right to the heart of the problem in this thread - Excellent post. I see no alternative for the OP but to ignore it. It’s no wonder agreement cannot be reached here -everybody in this thread is defending parenthood by adoption. Whatever the hell it is that the OP is attacking, it’s something else. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/225 "2010-01-20T23:34:12Z")
> [@Otara](#): > > “All that means is that the government officials there like to be bribed by rich foreigners, it doesn’t mean the babies were stolen. They were adopted out of orphanages, like babies all over the world (such as myself).” > > There are stolen babies though and various abuses that have occurred in international adoptions for instance, which is why the Hague convention came into being. The drive to be a parent is extremely powerful and people are times have been willing to do some fairly horrendous things in order to be parents or be complicit in them. > > We also have different terms in Australia for voluntary vs involuntary adoption, permanent care is where the child is taken away by the court. While there are clearcut ‘the child would be dead or seriously harmed’ cases, there are others where things can get a bit greyer and unfortunately we’re just having to make the best guess possible based on clinical knowledge, generally after a long period of trying to make things work first admittedly. > > That doesnt mean you throw out the baby with the bathwater though (sorry!). > > In the next 48 hours or so I’ll be finding out if we’re the one of the 3 options the biological/relinquishing mother has to choose between, so this thread is surprisingly timely. > > Otara That is true. Our State Department in the U.S. also watches international adoptions and shuts down programs where they suspect there is “baby selling” or “baby stealing” going on. But there are a lot of cultural factors in an international adoption, and you do it according to the laws and customs of the country you deal with. Some of those countries have a tradition of bribes - which to us may seem horrible, and to them is the way the foreign official gets most of his income. I also get the feeling ZPG really doesn’t understand how much effort many adoptive parents nowadays put into making sure their children have cultural ties to their birth country. We dragged the kids to Korea school for a year, took them to Korea cultural events, ate in Korean restaurants, cultivated Korean friends, offered Korean camp - until my son put his foot down with “I’m an American kid, stop treating me like I’m different.” I can’t give my kid his birthmother, no one can do that. And sometimes I suspect I have the most sadness in the triad over that - although I don’t know his birthmother and its possible she grieves more than I do. I can offer him his birth culture. But I can’t make him live it. (Where is that kid, the corns need to be filed off my feet!) ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/226 "2010-01-20T23:40:43Z")
I am trying to understand the mentality of someone that can raise a child for 18 years and then be prepared to disown them over a title anyone with a working uterus can possess if they forget their birth control. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/227 "2010-01-20T23:44:12Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > I am trying to understand the mentality of someone that can raise a child for 18 years and then be prepared to disown them over a title anyone with a working uterus can possess if they forget their birth control. Can you cite a single person in this thread that has said that? You may know one person who is doing that–that is not typical behavior of adopted parents. ---
**Author:** ![CrazyCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@CrazyCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrazyCatLady)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/228 "2010-01-20T23:45:26Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > You don’t seem to be able to comprehend what it means to belong to a family, not just a mother and father. Family means generations stretching out across time and space. It’s a web of aunts, uncles, cousins, etc., who are connected to you, who love and help you. And if your mother and father aren’t there or just not a good fit with you, it doesn’t matter because the family is there and will always be there and will help you find the place for you. Sure I do. It’s just that because my father had the misfortune to lose his mother at the age of 2, and his only full bio-sibling at the age of 17, and his father at the age of 36, most of those people aren’t tied to me by genetics. My aunts are my dad’s two step-sisters and his half-sister. My cousins are the children of the two step-sisters. My grandma is his second step-mother. The grandpa I lost a couple weeks ago was the man Grandma married when I was 15. Those people would walk through fire for me without ever stopping to think about it, not because they’re obligated to, but because they _want_ to. When it comes to family, genetics means very little, and love means everything. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/229 "2010-01-20T23:49:53Z")
> [@SmellMyWort](#): > > No one except you is saying MUST. I would wager a guess that the older a child is at the time of adoption, the less likely the titles Mom or Dad are used. That is because the child is probably old enough to understand that while the birth parent(s) can no longer care for him/her, that person or couple filled the role of parent (but maybe not all that well) for a number of years. > > However, many of the adoptions that happen in the US are infant adotpions where the mother (probably single and poor, maybe on drugs) **does not want** the baby. The child is given to (not stolen from :rolleyes:) the adoptive parents almost immediately. The child has no attachment to the bio parent at all, and why should he/she, at least at this point, after all the birth parent DID NOT WANT THE CHILD. As the child grows, why should the adoptive parents reference these mysterious people? It is not only confusing for the child, but also hurtful for him/her to be continually reminded that the biological parents did not want him, even if it was for the good of the child. You are obviously not open to anything but the most strict definition of parent, and that is where your problem lies. > > Well, you’ve said: > > And you’ve certainly given us that impression when you say things like: > So which is it? Your parents weren’t absent, but they didn’t raise you? Yes, I’m sure that from the age of 0-5 the reason why you didn’t spend time with your mother was because you “preferred” your aunt and grandmother.:rolleyes: > > Sounds like his parents are ABSENT. > > Again, how about from the age of 0-5? > > Again, where is your ABSENT mother? > > You fail to see the difference between having family step in to _help_ raise a child, and adopting a child that you raise from only days old as your own. No one has a problem with family helping out (it takes a village), but there is no way you can compare that with adopting an unwanted infant. What do you propose society do with unwanted babies? Do you think an orphanage is preferable to adoptive parents? > > What you seem to have a problem with is family who don’t step in to help when a family member who should or cannot care for a child becomes pregnant. Why do you attack those who are wililng and able to give that child a good home? > > I’m neither adopted, nor have I adopted any children. Chances are if the birth mother doesn’t want the baby, she wanted an abortion and was denied it which should have been corrected long before nine months were up. As for me and my mother, yes even before the age of 5, I didn’t care for her company. She liked loud music and people. I liked it quiet and perferred to read (I was reading at the age of three). As soon as I could walk I would toddle down to my first aunt’s room were it was nice and quiet. Soon enough my little bed got moved in there and that’s where I slept. It was a good arrangement for all. My first aunt had the primary charge of looking after me, but once again it never occurred to me even at the age of three I was suppose to call her mother. She was my aunt. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/230 "2010-01-20T23:51:41Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Can you cite a single person in this thread that has said that? You may know one person who is doing that–that is not typical behavior of adopted parents. The thread was started because I wanted to know why one of my soon-to-be ex-clients was doing just that. Go back to page one. ---
**Author:** ![Otara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a88e4f/32.png) [@Otara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otara)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/231 "2010-01-20T23:56:29Z")
“But there are a lot of cultural factors in an international adoption, and you do it according to the laws and customs of the country you deal with. Some of those countries have a tradition of bribes - which to us may seem horrible, and to them is the way the foreign official gets most of his income.” Id have to recheck but Im pretty sure that would be technically be a disqualifying factor under the Hague convention. The US has only adopted it fairly recently, but I think there were following it beforehand. There has been talk about the US being a bit uh, looser, with some of its procedures than ideal, he says cringing at how this could go as a thread by saying it. One reason there is a clear separation between the adopting parents and the overseas countries by having an accredited agency in between is to try and cut down on this sort of thing, as it is a pretty obvious motive for baby farming or preferential treatment to start up. In Australia a single payment is made to ‘DHS’, and they take care of payments from there rather than a ‘this is the latest charge’ setup, theres none of the receipt stuff talked about above as far as I know. Now I might be being naive here as I havent had direct involvement in this track, and maybe everyone was carefully not talking about it. But Im pretty sure thats the case, you’re not even allowed to go to the country before the adoption has occurred. Edit: “I am trying to understand the mentality of someone that can raise a child for 18 years and then be prepared to disown them over a title anyone with a working uterus can possess if they forget their birth control.” Theres almost certainly other factors involved and this is just the symbolic thing they’re drawing a line over rather than the only issue. Its hard to take this claim seriously without a lot more information which would turn it into a clinical discussion rather than a debate. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/232 "2010-01-20T23:56:54Z")
And SmellMyWort, I do think orphanages are better than fake families. I don’t consider that giving a child a good home. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/233 "2010-01-20T23:58:58Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > She’s doing the child a favor by rescuing it from a genetic tieless life. Who would want to live that way? I know I wouldn’t want to live with people that wanted me to lie about who my parents were. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2010, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/234 "2010-01-21T00:02:13Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Chances are if the birth mother doesn’t want the baby, she wanted an abortion and was denied it which should have been corrected long before nine months were up. This isn’t correct either - a large number of people are opposed to abortion on _principle_, and a large number of people are in favor of it being legal but would not (and do not) get one themselves. So: A - people who would get abortions (and want it legal) B - people who wouldn’t but want it legal C - people who wouldn’t and want it illegal If A \> B + C as you are claiming, then A + B \> C would be true (for trivial math reasons), and it would be _legal everywhere_. But it ain’t. Because C \> A + B, which means that C + B (people who wouldn’t get abortions) is _clearly_ \> A (people who want abortions and can’t get them). ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2010, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/235 "2010-01-21T00:03:47Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > I know I wouldn’t want to live with people that wanted me to lie about who my parents were. Strawman, the minute you apply it to adopters in general rather than the desperate messed up lunatic you started the thread about. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2010, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/236 "2010-01-21T00:04:24Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > I am trying to understand the mentality of someone that can raise a child for 18 years and then be prepared to disown them over a title anyone with a working uterus can possess if they forget their birth control. There’s a good chance she’s not in her right mind. She apparently believes that people can tell the future. > [@](#): > > I know I wouldn’t want to live with people that wanted me to lie about who my parents were. Well, that’s an interesting observation, but not really on point, since the reference was to murdering a child to save it from a life without genetic ties. It had nothing to do with living with people who demanded that a person lie, it had to do with living versus dying. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2010, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/237 "2010-01-21T00:05:29Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > This isn’t correct either - a large number of people are opposed to abortion on _principle_, and a large number of people are in favor of it being legal but would not (and do not) get one themselves. So: > > A - people who would get abortions (and want it legal) > B - people who wouldn’t but want it legal > C - people who wouldn’t and want it illegal > > If A \> B + C as you are claiming, then A + B \> C would be true (for trivial math reasons), and it would be _legal everywhere_. But it ain’t. Because C \> A + B, which means that C + B (people who wouldn’t get abortions) is _clearly_ \> A (people who want abortions and can’t get them). I think the members of CUB (Concerned United Birthparents) would disagree with you. You might also check out Joss Shawyer’s Death by Adoption for a real look at what the adoption industry is about. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2010, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/238 "2010-01-21T00:14:57Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > I am trying to understand the mentality of someone that can raise a child for 18 years and then be prepared to disown them over a title anyone with a working uterus can possess if they forget their birth control. You are trying to understand the mentality of someone who is ill. That can be a usefl exercise sometimes but it’s a big mistake to attribute it to a larger group of people. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2010, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/239 "2010-01-21T00:16:59Z")
[quote=“Contrapuntal, post:236, topic:525506”] There’s a good chance she’s not in her right mind. She apparently believes that people can tell the future.=QUOTE] Perhaps, but her contention that she should be called the child’s mother seems to be supported by many people. My own first inclination was to counsel her that she should be more accepting of reality and not project her own fantasies unto another person. I have a question I have often used with adopters in the past, “Would you rather have this child say, Mrs. or Mam to you with love and respect, or would you have them call you Mother with hate in their eyes?” And why shouldn’t she be encouraged to take pride in raising an orphan? It’s a very noble and honorable thing far more so than merely stepping up the responsibility of raising a child because your birth control failed. Given the physical conditions of some infants put up for adoption (premies and drug addicted babies), if I was raising them, I would be damn insulted if anyone implied I was the mother who did meth while pregnant and caused the child to have all sorts of heatlh problems. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2010, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/240 "2010-01-21T00:23:05Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Perhaps, but her contention that she should be called the child’s mother seems to be supported by many people. But no one has endorsed her behavior. So why are you saying they have? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506.md?page=13)