# Adoption: Why say Mom and Dad? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 19, 2010, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506 "2010-01-19T02:33:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/321 "2010-01-22T14:04:14Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > You do realize 2nd cousins can marry? What does that have to do with anything? Your example of aunts and uncles demonstrates that family relationships are not necessarily based on genetic relations. Adoption is another example of a family relationship not based on genetic relationships. Or, to put it another way - \*Why is it necessary to maintain the fiction that aunts and uncles by marriage have a genetic relation to the children by raising them to call these people aunt and uncle (or other family names)? It never made sense to me, if family is such a good and noble thing, that the relationship between the child and relation by marriage had to be hidden. It also seemed rather insulting to people who were genetically related to the children. Yet whenever I ask the question, I get hysterics\*. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/322 "2010-01-22T16:17:33Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > To be utterly fair, many many MANY people do this every single day, and have since the dawn of history, and I’m sure only a tiny minority shares the OP’s views. Seriously, look at what you just said. I hope you’re not implying that it’s unusual for a criminal’s family to harbor him/her, even with full knowledge of his/her guilt, or for an abuser’s family to let abuse go unreported or unhindered. > > OTOH, I’m sure an equally few number of them put it the way the OP does. Or implies (since she didn’t outright say it) that it’s a “right” thing to do. Who says I wanted him to go free and unarrested? I would have liked to fixed a grand banquet for the men who came to arrest him, but time did not permit. Actually, the point was because he was a relative I did not want to be the one that killed him. And if he had been sentenced death (a sentence he deserved in my opinion), I would not have wanted to be part of the execution process. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/323 "2010-01-22T16:21:58Z")
You know 2nd cousins can marry. > [@Shodan](#): > > What does that have to do with anything? > ].Regards, > Shodan When 2nd cousins marry, they have a genetic bond to their in-laws. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/324 "2010-01-22T16:41:41Z")
What does this ‘genetic bond’ actually consist of? Are you proposing some kind of mechanism that makes a measurable, real-world difference to the way one person is ‘connected’ to another? If so, what is it, and how (in detail) does it work? Or in other words, take 10 assorted people, two of which are close blood relatives, but don’t know they are related - place them all in a room together. Does the ‘genetic bond’ of the two relatives make any difference to the way that any people in the room interact and connect to/with each other? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/325 "2010-01-22T17:06:13Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > When 2nd cousins marry, they have a genetic bond to their in-laws. Granted. Second cousin marriage is rather rare, as far as I can tell. What was being discussed was the larger number of family relations that are not based on a genetic bond. Like aunts and uncles by marriage, in-laws, and adoption. Would you care to respond to that? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/326 "2010-01-22T17:33:40Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Problem with that is **I’m a wise woman/fortune teller**. While I don’t understand a lot of things about adoption, I am trying to undestand why this woman thinks this way. (Bolding mine.) One would think that as a “wise woman/fortune teller” trying to understand a client shouldn’t be a problem. Something appears amiss here. > [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Some religious tradiations consider a person to be ritually “unclean” if they share food, drink or swimming water with someone who is illegitimate or otherwise residing in a state they consider immoral such as a remarriage after divorce under certain circumstances. **I consider such beliefs superstitution** , but for others it is something they sincerely worry about and I would not want to subject someone who did worry about such a situation to undue trouble. If people are honest about what the family relationships are, this doesn’t happen. (Bolding mine.) There it is! So who decides which superstitious belief is or is not? ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/327 "2010-01-22T18:15:53Z")
> [@Duckster](#): > > (Bolding mine.) > > One would think that as a “wise woman/fortune teller” trying to understand a client shouldn’t be a problem. Something appears amiss here. > > (Bolding mine.) > > There it is! > > So who decides which superstitious belief is or is not? Do all christians have identical beliefs about their religion? I believe there is quite a bit of difference between Roman Catholics and Southern Baptists about the nature of the cracker and liquid used in communion. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/328 "2010-01-22T18:18:08Z")
So this is all to accommodate those who believe in the stigma of uncleanliness that is: being remarried after divorce, orphaned, illegitimate, adopted, epileptic? Because they deserve to know should they need to share food, drink, or a pool with them? We don’t want to cause _them_ any ‘undue trouble’? I can’t help noticing you have avoided answering the obvious question; why did you leave the haven of backwardness and superstition that is Eastern Europe where your views are clearly in line with theirs? Now that you’ve crossed over to the west, I believe you’ll find very few people are willing to return to a time of stigmatizing anyone as ‘unclean’ for such things. But, hey, good luck with dragging everyone back into another century. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/329 "2010-01-22T18:26:37Z")
[quote=“Shodan, post:325, topic:525506”] Granted. Second cousin marriage is rather rare, as far as I can tell. What was being discussed was the larger number of family relations that are not based on a genetic bond. Like aunts and uncles by marriage, in-laws, and adoption. Would you care to respond to that? Regards, Shodan[/QUOTE In many ethnic group and cultures, second cousin marriages are rather common. Personally, I’ve always considered family bonds formed by marriage weaker, less stable, and just plain different than the bonds of blood relations. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/330 "2010-01-22T18:29:17Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > In many ethnic group and cultures, second cousin marriages are rather common. Personally, I’ve always considered family bonds formed by marriage weaker, less stable, and just plain different than the bonds of blood relations. For the purposes of this thread, though, you’re trying to argue such arbitrary positions as though they were arrived at through careful analysis. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/331 "2010-01-22T18:37:22Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > So this is all to accommodate those who believe in the stigma of uncleanliness that is: being remarried after divorce, orphaned, illegitimate, adopted, epileptic? Because they deserve to know should they need to share food, drink, or a pool with them? We don’t want to cause _them_ any ‘undue trouble’? > > I can’t help noticing you have avoided answering the obvious question; why did you leave the haven of backwardness and superstition that is Eastern Europe where your views are clearly in line with theirs? > > Now that you’ve crossed over to the west, I believe you’ll find very few people are willing to return to a time of stigmatizing anyone as ‘unclean’ for such things. > > But, hey, good luck with dragging everyone back into another century. I’m a native born U.S. citizen. As for as the uncleanliness issues, when it comes to your social life you have the right to associate with who you want. The common courtesy is that you should be honest with people about those issues. For example, if a devote Jew or Muslim asks if there is pork in a dish you’ve brought to an office party or a vegetarian asks about meat, you tell them truth, so they can make an honest decision based on the principles that are important to them regardless of what you feel is important. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/332 "2010-01-22T18:39:01Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Stolen from Wikki, Averroes defined logic as "the tool for distinguishing between the true and the false. That’s really more of a description then a definition. Sort of like a hoe is “a tool for growing vegetables.” It doesn’t really tell you much about a hoe, does it? Your logical fallacies have been pointed out to you in this thread, so again I ask, but specifically this time, how do you define logic. Specifically, what tool did you use to conclude that what folks are doing “defies logic”? What, specifically, about their behavior is illogical? ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/333 "2010-01-22T18:39:26Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Do all christians have identical beliefs about their religion? I believe there is quite a bit of difference between Roman Catholics and Southern Baptists about the nature of the cracker and liquid used in communion. I think you’ll find that Roman Catholics and Southern Baptists have very few if any doctrinal differences that affect their swimming habits. If you’ve got to know who’s adopted, divorced, etc, etc before you can get in the water, you should really just build a pool in your own backyard. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/334 "2010-01-22T18:50:28Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > For the purposes of this thread, though, you’re trying to argue such arbitrary positions as though they were arrived at through careful analysis. That was a polite way of saying, look at the law. It’s far from arbitrary. Your sister-in-law is not the same as your sister. A woman can divorce and marry her ex-husband’s brother (and vice versa). While in some religious tradiations it might be unacceptable, it is completely legal under U.S. law. However, you cannot marry your brother or sister. Unless of course (sacrasm mode on), your brother or sister was adopted by someone in which case you magically become unrelated (sacrasm mode off) ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/335 "2010-01-22T18:52:36Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > In many ethnic group and cultures, second cousin marriages are rather common. Personally, I’ve always considered family bonds formed by marriage weaker, less stable, and just plain different than the bonds of blood relations. Why? I would have thought it was the opposite - after all, you get to pick your partner (and friends, for that matter). You don’t get to pick who you’re related to. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/336 "2010-01-22T19:04:44Z")
I didn’t ask you to clarify your citizenry, I asked why you left a place so in line with your own thinking. If it’s so important to you then go back there, and live amongst the backward and superstitious, and leave us to our forward thinking 21st century ways. We live in an advanced and evolved culture accepting of diversity and unwilling to encourage the visitation of stigma onto innocents based on remarriage, illegitimacy, adoption, epilepsy, blood lines. (Should persons of black heritage with pale complexions be forced to label themselves as black? What about cross ethnic offsprings, should they all be labeled, half breeds, to accommodate those who would deem them unclean? Backward seems a very generous word to describe this.) You clearly feel otherwise. This being a free country you’re entitled to think whatever you like. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/337 "2010-01-22T19:07:26Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > That’s really more of a description then a definition. Sort of like a hoe is “a tool for growing vegetables.” It doesn’t really tell you much about a hoe, does it? > > Your logical fallacies have been pointed out to you in this thread, so again I ask, but specifically this time, how do you define logic. Specifically, what tool did you use to conclude that what folks are doing “defies logic”? What, specifically, about their behavior is illogical? Psycho client (that’s my new name for her since she’s been calling me repeatedly) adopted a child (i.e., she did not give birth to this kid and she knows she did not give birth to this kid). Psycho is upset and threatening to disown this college age young woman whom psycho insist she loves because the young woman wants to find her mother. I can’t remotely understand the logic of how psycho client expects everyone to defy the laws of logic and reality because she has issues with infertility. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/338 "2010-01-22T19:09:26Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Why? I would have thought it was the opposite - after all, you get to pick your partner (and friends, for that matter). You don’t get to pick who you’re related to. In situations where people pick their partners they usually do so out of love. People can fall out of love. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/339 "2010-01-22T19:11:14Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > I think you’ll find that Roman Catholics and Southern Baptists have very few if any doctrinal differences that affect their swimming habits. If you’ve got to know who’s adopted, divorced, etc, etc before you can get in the water, you should really just build a pool in your own backyard. I think we all know the swimming pool example was just that an example. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/340 "2010-01-22T19:20:05Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Psycho client (that’s my new name for her since she’s been calling me repeatedly) adopted a child (i.e., she did not give birth to this kid and she knows she did not give birth to this kid). Psycho is upset and threatening to disown this college age young woman whom psycho insist she loves because the young woman wants to find her mother. I can’t remotely understand the logic of how psycho client expects everyone to defy the laws of logic and reality because she has issues with infertility. So knowing this person is crazy, why are you tarring other adoptive parents by association? This situation has to happen to most adoptive parents and I don’t think there’s a problem for most of them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506.md?page=18)