# Adoption: Why say Mom and Dad? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 19, 2010, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506 "2010-01-19T02:33:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/381 "2010-01-22T22:27:15Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > Thing is, if you’re a vegetarian it’s up to you to ascertain whether there is any meat in the food at any event you attend. Same if you’re a Jew/Muslim, it’s on you to ask, “Is there pork in this?” > > It’s not the for the host to label it “contains pork, made by the unclean hands of an adulteress, adoptee, etc.” > > So, if you or your ilk, feel it’s necessary to know bloodlines and cleanliness of people who may be divorced and remarried, of mixed race, illegitimate, epileptic, then it’s on you to make whatever inquiries are required to satisfy your judgmental selves. > > Have at it. Who’s standing in your way? (I would love to be a fly on that wall !) > > But if you want this society to label everyone clearly so y’all can stigmatize, judge and disdain, well I’m thinking you’re out of luck there, Gypsy (not so) Wise Woman. The desire for people to label themselves for your convenience is a sign of laziness, obviously - but it also smacks of a healthy (or unhealthy) sense of self-superiority and self-entitlement. I’m not sure if it’s possible to do this without dehumanizing and hating the people you are doing this to. The normal/rational approach to this sort of question is to either ask, if it doesn’t come up much, or to post a sign, if it’s a standard condition that applies to all. Like, posting a sign “no pregant women in our pool”, or wearing a sign around your neck, “I distrust and hate people who adopt or are adopted.” It’s not normal to expect everyone _else_ to wear signs for your benefit - and it’s not even _rational_ to expect it when your particular hangup is so ludicrously unique as the OP’s. Everyone has hangups, and if we expected people to post everyting about them that could _possibly_ bother anyone (even crazy people), then they’d have to post every single fact about themselves, from their entire ancestry to their complete medical records to their rated taste preferences for every food in existence. In short, expecting this is stupidly insane, and speaks of titanic ego to think that _your_ personal hangup is so much more important than everyone else’s that it deserves everyone else giving it special consideration. If the issue was larger, both in the number of people who are sensitive to the property and the degree to which it’s a problem if a sensitive person encounters the stuff, then voluntary or mandatory labeling may occur for the few properties that have that large an impact. Some examples of this are the labeling of kosher food, peanut contamination, or carcinogens. The thing is though, there has to be some real potential damage in enough people’s minds to make the labeling _mandatory_, on the products which are ‘unclean’. For concerns that are not so severe/widespread, you get voluntary labels that mark ‘clean’ products, rather than mandatory warning labels. To require mandatory warning labels on _people_, rather than products, is even more dodgy. As noted, for a warning to be mandatory it means that the property in question is _reviled_. It’s the difference between people choosing to wear a cross to advertise that they’re Christian, and _forcing_ them to wear crosses (or scarlet letters, or stars of David) so you can know to treat them predjudicially. That aside and regardless, to expect people to warn you when they were adopted without you having to go to the minimal effort of asking them at _least_ presumes that you think that lots and lots of lots of other people have this peculiar strong hangup with adoption too. If you believe this, they either you’re not living in the USA, or you’re frighteningly oblivious to the culture you’re in. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/382 "2010-01-22T22:43:23Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > In many ethnic group and cultures, second cousin marriages are rather common. Personally, I’ve always considered family bonds formed by marriage weaker, less stable, and just plain different than the bonds of blood relations. One wonders if you’ve encountered enough good marriages then. Over half of all people will remain voluntarily married to their partners for the rest of their lives. How many people spend so much time living in the same house as a parent? > [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > People get divorced is the reason ties to blood relatives are stronger. See above. People also tend to live longer with a spouse than they do with a parent. I wrote it before and I will write it again. Many of us do not take the narrow definition of mother that you do. Mom is a term that signals not just that this person may or may not have given birth to me. Mom is a signal that the person loves me in the most unconditional way possible. Why should it suprise you that people have no problem feeling that way about an adoptive parent who gets up three times a night to feed a baby or leaves a satisfying career to care for a toddler? They certainly seem more worthy of the respect implied with such terminology than woman who has unprotected sex, uses drugs during the entire pregnancy and then surrenders the baby to foster care for the rest of her life. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/383 "2010-01-22T22:51:07Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > I think if you going to socially interact with people you should expect them to want to know some basic details. Knowing that a child is adopted would explain for example a racial difference between the parents and child that otherwise could be embarassing (as in suggests adultery on the part of one of the spouses). I cannot recall a time I have ever considered whether a child who had a different appearance from his or her parents was the product of an adulterous relationship. I suspect that the normal, (both in the meaning of overwhelming frequency and in the meaning of not kookie), reaction of most people would be that the child was adopted, (cause, y’know, most people don’t have a hate on for such activities), or the product of an earlier relationship. Speculating wildly about the sexual behavior of other people based on a lack of information regarding their children strikes me as very odd behavior. Are you going to actually address the issue of why you think that we should overturn millennia of natural language development to impose your beliefs? ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/384 "2010-01-22T22:58:47Z")
Because it’s not a millennia of natural language development. It’s the belief of adopters that waving a few magic legal papers someone can erase a few million years of evolution. And because I find it insulting to have people lie to my face about where the children they have in their house come from. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/385 "2010-01-22T23:02:04Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Because it’s not a millennia of natural language development. It’s the belief of adopters that waving a few magic legal papers someone can erase a few million years of evolution. And because I find it insulting to have people lie to my face about where the children they have in their house come from. CITE. Demonstrate that in the ancient of days adopted children never called their adoptive parents mother or father, and that adopting parents never called their adopted children son or daughter. Keep in mind that the bible has examples of this happening. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/386 "2010-01-22T23:02:32Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Well, if you were hoping to sell me something or enter into a business deal you might. You missed my point. The point is that I would never lose sleep worrying about false assumptions and prejudices. If you want to limit who you do business with based on that stuff, that’s your problem, not mine. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/387 "2010-01-22T23:03:07Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Because it’s not a millennia of natural language development. The people who’ve said it IS have cites to prove their point. You’ve got your own opinion but I don’t see anything else to back it up. > [@](#): > > And because I find it insulting to have people lie to my face about where the children they have in their house come from. Lying requires intent to deceive. These people have a different view of adoption than you do but it’s clear they are telling you the truth as they see it. And besides, when you have two white people with a black or Asian child (for example) who looks like neither parent, the child is obviously adopted. It’s stupid to even interpret that as a lie. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/388 "2010-01-22T23:04:01Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Because it’s not a millennia of natural language development. It’s the belief of adopters that waving a few magic legal papers someone can erase a few million years of evolution. And because I find it insulting to have people lie to my face about where the children they have in their house come from. One time I saw a lion try to adopt a baby gazelle. And a dog nursing kittens. And cats adopt baby birds. I think all creatures should be forced to adopt in a cross species manner because violating Evolution seven ways from Sunday is adorable. That is all. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/389 "2010-01-22T23:12:34Z")
> [@Duckster](#): > > So in a nutshell, you do not believe in the entire concept of adoption. Is that correct? I think a baby can only come out of a human vagina once. We call the woman whose vagina it was a mother to designate the difference between what she has done (provide life material, and life support inside their uterus’s for the fetus to develop and successfully delivered a living infant). This doesn’t give her a free pass, but she does have special rights (at least until she abuses them) before other people because of what she has done and sacrificed. Caregiving, raising, whatever you want to call it, to educate and socialize an infant to a responsible human being is something anyone or a group of anyones, male or female of variety of ages and physical abilities can do. Guardianship is a wonderful, noble thing. I believe many more people might be willing to take some of the world’s orphaned children to raise if this were emphasized. But it isn’t. It’s all about abandoning the natural family of many generations and creating these little families out of legal papers. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/390 "2010-01-22T23:24:40Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > ETA: and connections to married partners are consistently as strong or stronger than those to blood relatives, in America and many first world countries. If they weren’t, nobody would ever leave home. That’s also why, there are so many divorces in America and the many first world countries, and why we have so many nursing homes because familes aren’t taking care of their elderly anymore. You can divorce your spouse, but not your siblings. Marriage is a legal relationship, yes which is part of the reason it’s always better to have some blood ties to fall back on, but even a childfree person like myself is forced to admitt marriage evolved, so men could be sure of the legitimacy of their children. You see not any child would do, they wanted an heir that was related to them by DNA. And even the adopttees in this thread have admitted that most people only choose adoption because of infertility. An admission that surprised me. If that’s true, then the adopters themselves have opennly admitted by their actions, they would perfer to have children that were blood relations and adoption is the substitute only when that is impossible. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/391 "2010-01-22T23:28:33Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > CITE. Demonstrate that in the ancient of days adopted children never called their adoptive parents mother or father, and that adopting parents never called their adopted children son or daughter. > > Keep in mind that the bible has examples of this happening. Really, where? Are you referring to the story of Moses perhaps? I believe a pivotal point in that story was that even though Moses was raised (and probably loved) by a princess of Egypt, he didn’t become a Pharoah. He turned his back on his Egyptian adopters and he lead the people of his birth, his genetic relations (enslaved by his adopters) to freedom. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/392 "2010-01-22T23:29:32Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > I think a baby can only come out of a human vagina once. We call the woman whose vagina it was a mother to designate the difference between what she has done (provide life material, and life support inside their uterus’s for the fetus to develop and successfully delivered a living infant). This doesn’t give her a free pass, but she does have special rights (at least until she abuses them) before other people because of what she has done and sacrificed. And how would you know anything about that, hmm? ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/393 "2010-01-22T23:33:06Z")
What happens if you were born via c-section? Does that mean you’re not of woman born and you owe kidneys to NO ONE? ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/394 "2010-01-22T23:33:11Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > You can divorce your spouse, but not your siblings. Yes you can. You can ignore your relatives and never look back. Furthermore, [Dick Cheney is Barack Obama’s eighth cousin](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1566489/Barack-Obama-and-Dick-Cheney-are-cousins.html). Do they owe each other anything? Do they have a mystical blood tie binding them together? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2010, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/395 "2010-01-23T00:10:50Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Really, where? Are you referring to the story of Moses perhaps? I believe a pivotal point in that story was that even though Moses was raised (and probably loved) by a princess of Egypt, he didn’t become a Pharoah. He turned his back on his Egyptian adopters and he lead the people of his birth, his genetic relations (enslaved by his adopters) to freedom. No. A five minute google turned up this: Ephesians 1:3-6 (New International Version) 3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us to be **adopted as his sons** through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. Bolding mine - oh **dear** , _everyone_ is adopted, and are _sons_ as a result. That’s a minimum of six billion counterexamples to your completely unsupported claim, which you have produced **absolutely no support for but your opinion**. I’m very sorry that reality and you aren’t getting along on this, but that’s simply the way things are. ---
**Author:** ![Oldeb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ea666f/32.png) [@Oldeb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oldeb)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2010, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/396 "2010-01-23T00:22:11Z")
Don’t forget Jacob adopting Manasseh and Ephraim (while there own father, Jacob’s own son, was still alive!) This one predates Moses too. “Now then, your two sons born to you in Egypt before I came to you here will be reckoned as mine: Ephraim and Manasseh will be mine, just as Reuben and Simeon are mine.” Genessis 48:5 Or Esther. She got an entire book about her. “This girl, who was also known as Esther, was lovely in form and features, and Mordecai had taken her as his own daughter when her father and mother died.” Esther 2:7 ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2010, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/397 "2010-01-23T00:27:37Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Because it’s not a millennia of natural language development. I have already demonstrated that I am correct and that you are in error on this point. In his letter to the Romans, Paul talks about Christians being adopted by God, giving them the right to call Him “Daddy.” Now regardless how one views Paul’s theology, he could never have put that statement in his letter if the people to whom he was writing were not already familiar with the concept of adoption as well as the concept that adopted children would call their adoptive parents by the familiar terms that children use with their birth parents. For Paul’s words to have meant anything 1950 years, or so, ago, the concept had to already have been around for a while and 2000 years gets me “millennia” without even considering similar usages among other cultures earlier than that statement. > [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > It’s the belief of adopters that waving a few magic legal papers someone can erase a few million years of evolution. Adoptions occur in pre-literate societies, so clearly the issue is not one of “legal papers.” Beyond that there is no effort to “erase” evolution and I know of no person supporting adoption who would believe that. In fact, it is your persistent refusal to address issues such as this claim that has placed this thread in danger of being closed. Simply repeating your strident claims over and over is not an explanation. You need to lay out in a coherent fashion just what your issue might be. (And more claims that others need to read history will not serve you well. You need to support your wilder claims with actual research.) > [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > And because I find it insulting to have people lie to my face about where the children they have in their house come from. That you choose to be insulted by normal people going about their daily lives, not harming you or directing insults at you, merely raising their children, simply indicates that you have odd beliefs. You need to provide something with substance to persuade the entire world, (minus the dozen or so adherents of your philosophy), to change all the languages of the world so that you will not decide to feel insulted. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2010, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/398 "2010-01-23T00:29:57Z")
And lest we get some kind of dodge to the effect that these (biblical references\*) may/may not be fictional people/adoptions, the _point_ is that the OP thinks that calling adopted kids/parents by the same terms as birthed kids isn’t the way the language developed. If the OP were right, which she isn’t, then the language wouldn’t be used that way in fictional stories _either_. But it is. Because the OP ain’t right. \*eta ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2010, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/399 "2010-01-23T01:30:04Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > So quit sidestepping the question. > > Why would you leave the welcome backwardness of eastern Europe, where these views are indeed widespread, to come to the sunny shores of America, if it means that much to you, that you be able to ascertain who is ‘unclean’? > > Please, do tell. Dude. She already said she was born in the USA. Stop harping on this point; you’re just giving her ammunition. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2010, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/400 "2010-01-23T01:35:02Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > That’s also why, there are so many divorces in America and the many first world countries, and why we have so many nursing homes because familes aren’t taking care of their elderly anymore. You can divorce your spouse, but not your siblings. Marriage is a legal relationship, yes which is part of the reason it’s always better to have some blood ties to fall back on, but even a childfree person like myself is forced to admitt marriage evolved, so men could be sure of the legitimacy of their children. You see not any child would do, they wanted an heir that was related to them by DNA. > > And even the adopttees in this thread have admitted that most people only choose adoption because of infertility. An admission that surprised me. If that’s true, then the adopters themselves have opennly admitted by their actions, they would perfer to have children that were blood relations and adoption is the substitute only when that is impossible. No, I don’t think anyone said that they only choose adoption because of infertility. What we said was that people choose to adopt _because they want to be parents_. I think it’s true that most people try to have biological children first…I know that in my case, it’s because it was the path of least resistance. But if I hadn’t been able to conceive, I would have chosen adoption as an alternate option before I would go through infertility treatment. There ARE people whose preferred means of becoming parents is to adopt, often because philosophically they believe in supporting ZPG (heh) or just because they know that there are children who need homes. But the primary driver is usually because they want the fulfillment of being parents and having a child to love. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506.md?page=21)