# Adoption: Why say Mom and Dad? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 19, 2010, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506 "2010-01-19T02:33:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![LeeshaJoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e8cbc/32.png) [@LeeshaJoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LeeshaJoy)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2010, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/401 "2010-01-23T01:35:29Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > That really, really bothers me. It sounds like using a child to fulfill adult desires, not what’s best for the child. _Every single human being on this planet_ came into existence as the result of someone “fulfilling adult desires.” At least with adoption, we can be reasonably certain that the “adult desire” was the desire to raise a child, rather than simply the desire to get laid. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2010, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/402 "2010-01-23T02:01:04Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > And even the adopttees in this thread have admitted that most people only choose adoption because of infertility. An admission that surprised me. If that’s true, then the adopters themselves have opennly admitted by their actions, they would perfer to have children that were blood relations and adoption is the substitute only when that is impossible. Which, of course, refuses to address the many people who have both begotten and adopted children into the same family. And, in any event, who cares and why do you care? If a couple chooses to provided a stable and loving home for children, regardless whether they provided the sperm and ova or brought in a child from different birth parents, they are still providing that same stable and loving environment. It seems rather silly, (not to mention mean spirited), to get upset and heap scorn on people who are doing good, whatever the individual reasons that prompted them to take any specific action. ---
**Author:** ![Palo\_Verde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Palo\_Verde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Palo_Verde)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2010, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/403 "2010-01-23T03:20:42Z")
I really wanted to adopt children instead of giving birth to them. But it would have cost over $20,000 to adopt. To give birth we had a $20 co-pay. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2010, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/404 "2010-01-23T04:28:27Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > And because I find it insulting to have people lie to my face about where the children they have in their house come from. Has it occurred to you that it’s none of your business where those children came from? Seriously, what exactly is your malfunction that you believe that anyone owes you an explanation for how they live? ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2010, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/405 "2010-01-23T04:51:24Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > Has it occurred to you that it’s none of your business where those children came from? > > Seriously, what exactly is your malfunction that you believe that anyone owes you an explanation for how they live? But the swimming pools where people want to know that they’re swimming among their own kind and not among psychotic orphans! Won’t SOMEBODY PLEASE THINK OF THE SWIMMING POOLS? ---
**Author:** ![Erdosain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/erdosain/32/7284_2.png) [@Erdosain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erdosain)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2010, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/406 "2010-01-23T05:01:58Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > But the swimming pools where people want to know that they’re swimming among their own kind and not among psychotic orphans! Won’t SOMEBODY PLEASE THINK OF THE SWIMMING POOLS? Well, the OP recently saw a documentary called Orphan, and he’s concerned that the children in question… are really 37-year-old prostitutes. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2010, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/407 "2010-01-23T05:05:02Z")
> [@Erdosain](#): > > Well, the OP recently saw a documentary called Orphan, and he’s concerned that the children in question… are really 37-year-old prostitutes. Heh. Actually, I theorized that he saw that same documentary in the other thread because I’m as pro adoption as the next gal, and after I saw that I found myself shuddering at the thought of adopting… Though I had that same reaction after Joshua and the Bad Seed except it was more along the lines of “SEW UP THIGHS NOW,” so I dunno what my options are for kids. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2010, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/408 "2010-01-23T05:33:13Z")
" Originally Posted by elbows So quit sidestepping the question. Why would you leave the welcome backwardness of eastern Europe, where these views are indeed widespread, to come to the sunny shores of America, if it means that much to you, that you be able to ascertain who is ‘unclean’? Please, do tell. Dude. She already said she was born in the USA. Stop harping on this point; you’re just giving her ammunition." Dude, read for comprehension. I am aware she is an American citizen, we’ve covered that. I am asking why she would leave a land so in tune with her beliefs to return to a place so lacking, in her eyes. For an American citizen she seems woefully lacking in the knowledge that people fought and died to create a land where bloodlines and ‘cleanliness’ were not, and would not, be tolerated as the measure of their fellows. Where the sins of the parents, (remarried, unmarried, mixed race, orphaned, divorced, adopted), would not be visited upon the children. Of course, she refuses to address this inquiry like so many others made in this thread. (By the way, I’m not a dude!) ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2010, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/409 "2010-01-23T05:40:16Z")
> [@Oldeb](#): > > Or Esther. She got an entire book about her. [Esther](http://weakcampus.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/orphan.jpg) is probably the reason the OP is so fervently ANTI adoption! ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2010, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/410 "2010-01-23T09:51:18Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > And because I find it insulting to have people lie to my face about where the children they have in their house come from. Sounds to me like an issue that will solve itself - you call them liars, they show you the door and never invite you back into their house - end of problem. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2010, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/411 "2010-01-23T13:13:03Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > People get divorced is the reason ties to blood relatives are stronger. That’s silly. You don’t think people deliberately don’t see or ignore family? I for one certainly have family that I would not, by choice, like to see very much of. Which is reasonably likely, given that you don’t get to pick your relatives, meaning you may well end up with blood relatives you simply don’t get along with. Being divorced means there was, at some point, enough of a connection between those two people for them to marry. Being divorced is a guarantee that at one point there was a strong tie between that couple. Between relatives, there is zero such guarantee. People getting divorced is one reason that shows why ties to non-blood relatives and friends are stronger, not the other way around. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2010, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/412 "2010-01-23T14:03:19Z")
> [@Slypork](#): > > My God you are the most……………. I have to stop myself before I get banned. > > OK. In one word you are WRONG!!! > > We adopted our daughter because we wanted to share our love with another. We already had one biological son and, after years of early losses, decided to adopt. No conditions were _ **ever** _ placed on her. We will never love her less no matter what. > > You know what makes me a dad, \*\* ZPG Zealot\*\*? Unconditional love. Get that word? Let me spell it out for the emotionally impaired: > U-N-C-O-N-D-I-T-I-O-N-A-L. From the instant I saw her I loved her. No biological bond was there that might compel me to love her but I knew that she was my daughter. I will love her until the day I die (and afterwards if that is a possibility). I love her smile, her laugh, her fashion sense. Even when she drives me up a wall and is absolutely miserable I love her. I NEVER regret for an instant that we brought her into our lives. > > And what’s wrong with the word “Guardian”? A dog will guard you out of love. A fence will guard you from falling off a cliff. I can pay a person with a gun to guard me from harm. Moms and dads are guards but they are so much more. They are the doctors kissing boo-boos, knights scaring away the monsters under the bed, the chef who cuts the crust off the sandwich so it is just right. They sing the songs, read the stories, take the pictures at the school play. They embarrass the kids by singing along to Miley Cyrus when her friends are in the car. They let their daughter practice putting makeup on you and then join in the tea party. > > I’m a dad. Yes, I’m a father but, more importantly, I’m a dad. Someday my tombstone will say “Loving husband and dad”. And I’m damn proud of it. You can be a guardian if that is all you want to be. I want more. I want to be a dad. It’s a bit late, but I’d just like to say that this a wonderful post. The love you have for your daughter shines through your words. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2010, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/413 "2010-01-23T15:12:12Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Plus adoption is most often a consciously planned and prepared action. Natural pregnancy can happen by accident. > > People don’t generally adopt unless they want it to happen, but lots of people get pregnant without wanting to. I usually say “people don’t wake up to a surprise adoption very often.” It happens…I know people who have gotten a call that the birthmother of their child has another, and would they take the sibling (and they often do - blood ties ARE seen as important and if we were lucky enough to be able to get the opportunity to provide them to my son (unlikely at this point), we’d jump at the chance - they are just not seen as the be all and end all.) Also, people wake up to discover they are the guardians of relatives or friend’s children when parents die - although that isn’t the type of relationship ZPG disapproves of. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2010, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/414 "2010-01-23T15:17:54Z")
May I make a request that we get off the gypsy thing. I don’t know that this is the culture ZPG is from (maybe, maybe not), but my background IS Rom - and I am not a backwards fortune telling wise woman who is anti adoption. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2010, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/415 "2010-01-23T15:38:22Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > And even the adopttees in this thread have admitted that most people only choose adoption because of infertility. An admission that surprised me. If that’s true, then the adopters themselves have opennly admitted by their actions, they would perfer to have children that were blood relations and adoption is the substitute only when that is impossible. Its a lot more complex than that. We have two kids - one bio and one adopted. Our first child is adopted, our second a surprise pregnancy after infertility. Yes, our first “choice” would have been to have a pregnancy - its cheaper, its easier, its the “default” way to bring children into your family. For fertile people, it usually takes a LOT less time, its a LOT less hassle. You say “lets try and get pregnant” and in American society, fertile people get pregnant, if they want it get great pre-natal care, have a baby within a year or so. The insurance pays all the bills. You get all the control. When that hasn’t been working for a while, you need to decide whether your motivation is “breed and parent” or “parent.” Some people - and not everyone - determine that the parent is really the important part of the equation. And they run the adoption gauntlet. It isn’t an easy thing to do. It often takes years, because legitimate agencies and ethical people have to WAIT until someone who doesn’t want to parent has a baby and determines to place that child. The process has a lot of hands in it, everyone working to make a living and few people in the world can afford to work for free - so you pay a social worker and an attorney and the Homeland Security (if doing an international adoption), and for the birthmother’s hospital costs (all out of pocket because your health insurance usually doesn’t cover her). Its intrusive, the social worker asks questions to make sure you’ll be a “good” parent - and has the power to say no. But although it was often (not always) your second choice, it shouldn’t be a lesser choice. It just isn’t the default choice. If the world were perfect, there would be no unwanted children. Birthparents would be able to raise their children without stigma of illegitimacy. There would be adequate social safety nets to assure that a sixteen year old girl would not have to choose between her future and her child. She wouldn’t get pregnant because she’d have adequate access to birth control and education. There would be no NEED for adoption. Unfortunately, that isn’t the world we live in. In the world we live in my son’s mother could not obtain an abortion because its against the laws of her country. She probably didn’t have adequate information on birth control. There was a lot of stigma, and no social safety net which would allowed her to be a single parent. So for society, our choice is infanticide, institutional care, or adoption. Most people think that adoption is the best option of those three. Not that the other two haven’t happened throughout history - and still happen. Obviously you don’t think that’s the best option - I’m actually ok with that - I’ve run into the anti-adoption movement before, and while I don’t agree with them, or respect their opinions, I accept the fact that I’m not about to change them, nor they me. And thank God…the last thing we need is someone like you becoming an “adoptor.” ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2010, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/416 "2010-01-23T18:05:32Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > May I make a request that we get off the gypsy thing. I don’t know that this is the culture ZPG is from (maybe, maybe not), but my background IS Rom - and I am not a backwards fortune telling wise woman who is anti adoption. My only point in bringing it up was an attempt to reframe the issue in terms that **ZPGZealot** might appreciate. There are people who are bigoted toward gypsies. It would certainly make life easier for the bigots if everyone were to announce their ethnic identity each time they met someone new. That way if the bigots want to shun someone they don’t have to do any work to find out if the person is shun-worthy. And it avoids the embarrassing situation where the bigot inadvertently treated someone like a real human being :rolleyes: only to later discover the awful truth. **ZPGZealot** wants to make life easier for bigots. She wants to make it easier for the lazy and the ignorant to shun adoptive parents and their children. What’s sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, I say. If she’s so concerned about the feelings of bigots, she should extend the same courtesy to people who are bigoted toward HER. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2010, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/417 "2010-01-23T20:31:17Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > My only point in bringing it up was an attempt to reframe the issue in terms that **ZPGZealot** might appreciate. > > There are people who are bigoted toward gypsies. It would certainly make life easier for the bigots if everyone were to announce their ethnic identity each time they met someone new. That way if the bigots want to shun someone they don’t have to do any work to find out if the person is shun-worthy. And it avoids the embarrassing situation where the bigot inadvertently treated someone like a real human being :rolleyes: only to later discover the awful truth. > > **ZPGZealot** wants to make life easier for bigots. She wants to make it easier for the lazy and the ignorant to shun adoptive parents and their children. What’s sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, I say. If she’s so concerned about the feelings of bigots, she should extend the same courtesy to people who are bigoted toward HER. Yes, except I’m currently being insulted twice in the same thread, by opposite sides. Bigotry should not beget bigotry. So while you are busy saucing her gander, you are also saucing mine - and I’m not sure I deserve it. Frankly, you - and everyone else who are trying to play the gypsy card - are better than that. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2010, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/418 "2010-01-23T20:53:05Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Well, if you were hoping to sell me something or enter into a business deal you might. But didn’t this line of the conversation have to do with social interaction? I suppose some people carry a default assumption that there’s going to be considerable bleed-through (into commerce), but for many people, the primary purpose of social interaction is to spend time voluntarily with people whose company they enjoy as a benefit in itself. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2010, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/419 "2010-01-23T21:05:48Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Well, if you were hoping to sell me something or enter into a business deal you might. Of course, that works both ways, doesn’t it? If you wouldn’t do business with me because I’m an adoptive parent, or with Sarafeena because she is an adoptee - should you be aware of it - neither one of us is terribly likely to do business with you if we knew your stance on adoption. Since people who are adoption positive outnumber anti-adopters, I suspect that stance will hurt you more than it hurts either of us. In my experience, people knowing I have an adoptive child puts them MORE in my favor. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2010, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/420 "2010-01-23T21:09:31Z")
> [@Slypork](#): > > My God you are the most……………. I have to stop myself before I get banned. > > OK. In one word you are WRONG!!! > > We adopted our daughter because we wanted to share our love with another. We already had one biological son and, after years of early losses, decided to adopt. No conditions were _ **ever** _ placed on her. We will never love her less no matter what. > > You know what makes me a dad, \*\* ZPG Zealot\*\*? Unconditional love. Get that word? Let me spell it out for the emotionally impaired: > U-N-C-O-N-D-I-T-I-O-N-A-L. From the instant I saw her I loved her. No biological bond was there that might compel me to love her but I knew that she was my daughter. I will love her until the day I die (and afterwards if that is a possibility). I love her smile, her laugh, her fashion sense. Even when she drives me up a wall and is absolutely miserable I love her. I NEVER regret for an instant that we brought her into our lives. > > And what’s wrong with the word “Guardian”? A dog will guard you out of love. A fence will guard you from falling off a cliff. I can pay a person with a gun to guard me from harm. Moms and dads are guards but they are so much more. They are the doctors kissing boo-boos, knights scaring away the monsters under the bed, the chef who cuts the crust off the sandwich so it is just right. They sing the songs, read the stories, take the pictures at the school play. They embarrass the kids by singing along to Miley Cyrus when her friends are in the car. They let their daughter practice putting makeup on you and then join in the tea party. > > I’m a dad. Yes, I’m a father but, more importantly, I’m a dad. Someday my tombstone will say “Loving husband and dad”. And I’m damn proud of it. You can be a guardian if that is all you want to be. I want more. I want to be a dad. I wasn’t going to mention this post, but someone else brought it up and quite frankly that idea that children desire unconditional love sounds like the beginning of civilization’s downfall. You are not raising a child when you give him or her unconditional love. you are creating a sociopath. No wonder the world seems to be filled with bratty children. Children need discipline. They are born one giant, screaming Id with no consideration or idea that other peope even exist. Raising a child means teaching them about civilized behavior, reciprocity, trying to help them develop empathy, etc., not giving them unconditional love. “Knights caring away the monsters under the bed”, how about teaching the child how to defend themselves agains the monstors (you know, self-reliance) or better yet not the be afraid of imaginary monsters in the first place. I have always found Guardian to be one of the most noble titles one can accept. It means you have freely chosen to care for a child, not because you forgot to take your birth control pills and couldn’t get an abortion, not because someone guilted you into it, not because it was one of the conditions of marrying the spouse you desired, you CHOOSE to take care of that child, expecting NOTHING in return as you might a blood relation. How can that possibly not be more noble than someone who will only take a child, if they get to use the titles of mothers and fathers? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506.md?page=22)