# Adoption: Why say Mom and Dad? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 19, 2010, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506 "2010-01-19T02:33:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2010, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/121 "2010-01-19T22:18:12Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Did you know that my daughter was chosen Student of the Term for Language Arts at her school? She is taking college credit courses there as well. Just like my son, who started college as a sophomore with all the advanced credits he earned. More proof of the unrelated genetics. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2010, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/122 "2010-01-19T22:25:28Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > Are you a parent yourself? For someone who styles herself “a wise woman”, you don’t seem to have much insight into the parental bond. > > Taking care of a child is both selfish AND selfless. It satisfies (for many of us) a deep emotional need, AND it is also a huge and serious responsibility. Don’t forget that **ZPG Zealot** is the one who said that infanticide might be a good idea sometimes, in this thread: > **[Of Infanticide and Abortion](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=546471)** > > I just stumbled across this couple month old thread: about how female sexual habits would change if we had no abortion. Anyway, as a tangent, this post came up: In a normal society where abortion is allowed and we have adoption and the infant drop... I just can’t take him seriously on any topic relating to children or parenting. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2010, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/123 "2010-01-19T22:43:47Z")
I don’t say this very often [on preview: or ever before for that matter :p], but I think **Shodan** is coming across as the most thoughtful and well-balanced poster in this thread, with the best responses to the OP. Regards, Piper. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2010, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/124 "2010-01-19T22:52:58Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Let me guess, you’re an adopter. Based on your description of parenting (does the raising, changes the diapers, is there for the milestones, shaped the child into the person they are today, etc.) a great many “parents” are actually Latin American maids rather than the people whose names are listed on the birth certificates. If it makes you feel better, I’ve heard little kids calling their nannies ‘Mom.’ And of course you get hysterics when you ask adoptive parents about this. Their out-of-whack wombs and sexual deprivation are why they can’t have biological offspring in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![ToeJam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dfb087/32.png) [@ToeJam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ToeJam)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2010, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/125 "2010-01-19T23:01:41Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Problem with that is I’m a wise woman/fortune teller. While I don’t understand a lot of things about adoption, I am trying to undestand why this woman thinks this way. My colleagues have considerable negative opinions about adoption. At best, they would consider this woman to have stolen a child and would tell her that guilt is her problem (they would also fleece her for every cent possible). At worst, anything is possible and at the least, serious psychological damage. > [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > The client’s ability to to be “the single most important person in the child’s upbringing” appears to me far from good thing and I’m not sure what the client “achievements” could be said to be other than make a person who did love her actively dislike her. Lately, the client has been blathering to me that if this young woman (whom she claims she loves) actually tries to find her biological parents, the client is going to stop paying her college expenses. I usually don’t get that involved with other people’s lives when they are not family, but really this client honestly makes me sick. I can contact the young woman and tell her about the mental state of the client. My advice for the young woman would be to lie as much as she must until she gets her degree or has somesort of safety net in the world then let her emotions lead her. Since this pretty much seems to be the basis of why you’re asking the question, (and because I recall your previous Fortune Telling Thread/ and I remember the ZPG theory, I just never put the two posters as one and the same) but I’ll try to give my two cents on just that. You are correct in your first quote about your colleagues. Telling an adoptive parent that they’ve stolen a child especially during these sessions is not the best way to go about it, and can cause undue damage to the psyche. You have been forthright and honest about your own experiences as well, this is coloring your own views, and as a person from an extended family as well, I can say that it’s def. not so much the norm. The others are getting hysterical and I’m understanding a bit better as to why this seems to be a reoccurring theme for you in your life. Your opinions and thoughts are your own, and that’s perfectly fine- you seem fine for it, and more power to you for that. However, your words are also not the same that others would wish to describe their own personal relationship with their children, and your words, which you find suitable for yourself, can be viewed as harsh/attacking their ways and lifestyles. That’s certainly going to cause some “hysterical” behavior when you attack others ways of life, intentionally or not. But that doesn’t seem to be why you’ve created this thread, so let’s get back to the client. You asked who you should refer your client to and the first post on her didn’t really seem to imply she needed counseling at all. She certainly probably does “love” her child in her own way, but probably has unhealthy relationship or at least a strained one with her daughter currently. Whether or not she has a mental condition though is probably not for you to decide, so I’d decide against the psychiatrist option. The thing that does stand out as worrisome is the 2nd quote, where you do mention that your client wishes to use money as a way to basically buy her child’s allegiance. That’s certainly a shitty thing to do. The child (if in college) is certainly an adult and could some would say she should pay her own way and such. But for the parent to use a child’s college tuition as basically a tool in their relationship as a means of control over a child is certainly unhealthy. Your own family history/biases aside, I can certainly agree with you that this would certainly be a sucky thing to do (not a wrong thing really, as parents aren’t OBLIGATED to pay for college, but it certainly is manipulative). In that sense, the parent/client seems to be scared and trying to find a way to control her child’s relationship. This is something that needs to be discussed for her with her child and also her fears perhaps with a counselor. Not just an adoptions counselor or anything like that but a FAMILY therapist or a personal therapist. If you wish to suggest to your client that she should seek counseling or therapy or a \*\*psychologist \*\*(not psychiatrist) that is certainly well withing your means to do so. View this situation without the lens of Adoption biasing you. Basically you have a Mother here who is trying to control her child and using the child’s tuition to do so. This is not an adoptive parent/biological parent issue, but a psychological issue. What would you advise any other mother who came to you for this situation to do? Basically, it’s a control issue, and not an adoptive one. Though this client’s behavior is most uncool, I think you are letting it bias you a bit to much especially in regards to the adoption angle. This woman might want to seek counseling not about her daughter/adoptive issues (which may be why the family therapy and such issues have failed) but simply counseling and therapy for herself to resolve her OWN issues which are causing her problems. You as her Fortune Teller aren’t really in a position to do much more than that, and though it would be nice to give a heads up to the daughter, that doesn’t really solve anything and would just add more stress to the family relationship. The best you can do is hope to advise your client to solve her own psychological worries and fears by a professional, and then hope that she will discuss these fears about her daughter’s actions as well with the professional. Sorry for being long winded, but I think that’s what you really seemed to be wondering rather than this mess of Adoptive vs. Biological parents which has gotten you in this train wreck of a thread, and not what you seemed to be looking for in terms of answers and all. Hope this helps with your initial problem, then you might be able to extract yourself from this messy lil’ sitch on your own at least. -R ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2010, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/126 "2010-01-19T23:09:27Z")
ZPGZealot, you don’t understand what a parent is. A parent is not a DNA donor/embryo incubator. A parent isn’t an aunt or uncle or friend who provides backup support. A parent isn’t a paid maid or caregiver. A parent is someone who is prepared/willing to give up or alter their career/income, give up their freedom, time, sanity ( **all of this 24 hrs a day, not on a fill-in basis** ), and if necessary, throw themself in front of a train for their children. It is so far from what you describe you grew up with that apparently you don’t comprehend the difference. Sure, some parents are shitty, adoptive or biological. So what? I just can’t believe that you are so blind to what is around you. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2010, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/127 "2010-01-19T23:15:22Z")
How can a gypsy seer possibly know who to turn the evil eye on if bloodlines are kept secret? How can she work her mojo and superstition if we overlook the stigma of illegitimacy? How can she determine who is unclean and to be shunned unless all is revealed to her? If she cannot fan the flames of the ill educated, superstitious and unbalanced who’s going to pay her bills? Crystal balls don’t buy themselves! Have a little sympathy it aint easy living in the 21st century with the spirit of 12th century seer possessing you. For myself, I see no evidence of ‘wise’. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2010, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/128 "2010-01-19T23:24:51Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Well, it does make it more difficult to figure out what the actual relationship between the adult and the child is. Or maybe _it’s none of your business_. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2010, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/129 "2010-01-19T23:30:27Z")
I can see little adoptive Jr’s first day of kindergarten. “Now son, you be a good boy for the teacher, and have fun today.” “Thanks Mr. & Mrs. Schwartzman … I like firetrucks …” ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2010, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/130 "2010-01-19T23:55:56Z")
> [@ZPG Zealot](#): > > Based on your description of parenting (does the raising, changes the diapers, is there for the milestones, shaped the child into the person they are today, etc.) a great many “parents” are actually Latin American maids rather than the people whose names are listed on the birth certificates. I think you’re sorely in need of an enlarged vocabulary of terms for child-rearing activities and roles. You seem to be (completely unnecessarily) conflating the concepts of “raising” or “rearing” a child and “adopting” a child. While they generally overlap, they’re not the same thing. Yes, as you rightly point out, there are many people who act as primary caregivers for children who are not the child’s biological or legal parents and don’t consider themselves the child’s parents. There’s nothing wrong with that, but it doesn’t in any way invalidate the concept of adoptive parenthood. Caring for a child and being a parent are two different things. There’s no reason we should have to restrict the latter category only to people who conform to a narrow set of arbitrary criteria about genetic relationship or parental roles. There are some people who adopt children and then have most of the actual child-rearing done by a paid nanny, just as there are some people who give birth to or father children and then have most of the actual child-rearing done by a paid nanny. Nevertheless, they are still correctly designated “parents”, the adoptive ones as well as the birth ones. > [@ZPG Zealot](#): > > Done tons of that stuff for nephews, nieces, cousins, and friends kids. It never occurred to me I should require them to call me, mother. > […] It sounds like using a child to fulfill adult desires, not what’s best for the child. Again, the problem here is your own limited thinking. There’s no reason that adoption can’t be about **both** an adult’s desire to be a parent and an adult’s desire to do what’s best for a child. Moreover, even in cases where adoption is purely motivated by an adult’s self-centered obsession with parental status and not at all by altruistic desire to benefit a child, the adult is still correctly referred to as the child’s parent. If you want to take care of other people’s children as an aunt, cousin, friend, whatever, that’s terrific, knock yourself out. But if somebody else wants to take care of a child **as a parent** (or even just to be officially recognized as the child’s parent without doing any of the actual caretaking), that’s their business. You don’t get to decide whether or not somebody else is entitled to be called a parent just because you personally have chosen to do some child-rearing without being called a parent. ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2010, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/131 "2010-01-19T23:57:53Z")
> [@Cat\_Fight](#): > > If it makes you feel better, I’ve heard little kids calling their nannies ‘Mom.’ > > And of course you get hysterics when you ask adoptive parents about this. Their out-of-whack wombs and sexual deprivation are why they can’t have biological offspring in the first place. I honestly can’t tell if this is in jest. I would have said so, but after reading ZPGZealot, I have no idea anymore what is up and what is down. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/132 "2010-01-20T00:09:58Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > I don’t say this very often [on preview: or ever before for that matter :p], but I think **Shodan** is coming across as the most thoughtful and well-balanced poster in this thread, with the best responses to the OP. > > Regards, > Piper. I just want to say that this thread has made me prouder to be a Doper than I ever have been before, and that took some doing. Teaming up wit, erudition, honest-to-Og _heart_, and a smidgen of Cecilian snark in support of adopted children, with **Shodan** and his Usual Suspects all on the same (and right) side .. you’re just great people! ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/133 "2010-01-20T00:21:05Z")
If the OP is from a culture where bloodlines are of utmost importance and therefore attitudes towards adoption are very different than they tend to be in the culture most of the rest of us come from, then all of this is making a heck of a lot more sense. It makes it a lot more simple to answer her question, too. In my culture, we DON’T tend to put as much importance in blood relations, but have other criteria for what constitutes a family. And that’s pretty much all it boils down to. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/134 "2010-01-20T00:26:20Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > You don’t love the child BECAUSE they call you Mom or Dad. It’s because you love them that you and the child use those words. > > Have you ever had a significant other? Did you ever call him/her, “Baby,” or “Honey” or any endearment? And if so, was it that you had to use those words or else love would be with held…or more that it was an expression of love? I would not stay with my husband if his love was conditional on me addressing him as “Baby” or “Honey”. ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/135 "2010-01-20T00:30:36Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > I would not stay with my husband if his love was conditional on me addressing him as “Baby” or “Honey”. Way to miss the ENTIRE POINT of the post. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/136 "2010-01-20T00:41:19Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Really? You wake them up every morning, and put them to bed every night? And do all the everyday stuff in between? > > I think if you did so from an age when they couldn’t remember anyone else taking care of them, they’d call you ‘mama’ without your having to require it. They wouldn’t care if you were technically their aunt or whatever. I was the legal guardian for my youngest brother for sixteen years. He’s now eighteen. And it never occurred to me that he should refer to me as anything other than Eldest Sister. I’m currently the legal guardian of record for one of my nephews until he gets over his love affair with extreme skateboarding and doesn’t need someone that can easily be his adult in the emergency room. At various intervals, I have had guardianship of some of my nieces and I’ll probably be getting more of them in the near future because the commute to schools is better where I live than where they currently live. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/137 "2010-01-20T00:44:11Z")
> [@ZPG Zealot](#): > > I would not stay with my husband if his love was conditional on me addressing him as “Baby” or “Honey”. As **Kolga** noted, this completely misses the point. Where on earth did you get the idea that adoptive parents wouldn’t love their adopted children if the children refused to call them “Mom” and “Dad”? Just because most adoptive parents, like most other parents, generally **choose** to have their children call them “Mom” and “Dad” doesn’t mean that any of them would stop loving their children if they didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/138 "2010-01-20T00:49:14Z")
I have a ward. We fight crime. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/139 "2010-01-20T00:51:13Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > I was the legal guardian for my youngest brother for sixteen years. He’s now eighteen. And it never occurred to me that he should refer to me as anything other than Eldest Sister. I’m currently the legal guardian of record for one of my nephews until he gets over his love affair with extreme skateboarding and doesn’t need someone that can easily be his adult in the emergency room. At various intervals, I have had guardianship of some of my nieces and I’ll probably be getting more of them in the near future because the commute to schools is better where I live than where they currently live. And I like collecting Legos. Therefore, everybody else does too, it’s the normal way of things, and in fact it’s the only _possible_ way to do things. This just stands to reason. ETA: (Though it does escape me what your interfamilial guardianships have to do with adoptions of non-relatives.) ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506/140 "2010-01-20T00:55:08Z")
> [@ZPG Zealot](#): > > I was the legal guardian for my youngest brother for sixteen years. He’s now eighteen. And it never occurred to me that he should refer to me as anything other than Eldest Sister. So what? Nobody’s saying that rearing a child means that you **have** to consider yourself the child’s parent, or encourage the child to consider you as a parent. As previously noted, there are lots of other relationship categories within which child-rearing can occur. But if you **do** want to consider yourself the parent of a child you’re bringing up or otherwise responsible for, and you want that child to consider you as a parent, then what you do is adopt the child. I really don’t see why this simple and obvious fact is so tough for you to grasp. I’m starting to get the impression that what this thread is really about is providing an opportunity for you to do some covert bragging about how selflessly you’ve devoted yourself to caring for other people’s children without requiring them to be considered your **own** children. That’s terrific, and I’m very happy to give you lots of praise and appreciation for your caring and dedication, but I just don’t see why it has to be accompanied by mean-spirited denigration of adoptive parents. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adoption-why-say-mom-and-dad/525506.md?page=8)