# Ads Paid for by Secret Money Flood the Midterm Elections on the GOP side **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ads-paid-for-by-secret-money-flood-the-midterm-elections-on-the-gop-side/700994 "2014-10-10T19:35:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ads-paid-for-by-secret-money-flood-the-midterm-elections-on-the-gop-side/700994/41 "2014-10-15T02:50:55Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > When you basically require a license to speak, that’s not freedom of speech. What your argument basically amounts to is, “Sure, the political elites dominate discourse in the country with their media and press controls, but you’re still free! It’s not like they’ll deny you the right to get an abortion!” Oh wait, they do deny the right to abortion, or at least, like exercising your “right” to speak, you have to get government permission after the first trimester in many places in Europe. If we had such limits on abortion in the US, it wouldn’t be called a “reasonable restriction that doesn’t diminish our freedoms”, it would be a “war on women’s rights.” Well, when you claim that we can’t speak without government permission, that’s actually a war on the 1st amendment. > > BTW, what’s a reasonable limit on donations? Does it just happen to be far less than it takes to run an effective ad campaign? How convenient for the elites! That’s incoherent. As for the more coherent second paragraph, I’d be fine with a $2500 limit on personal donations. Since half the US population can’t afford an emergency $400 bill without borrowing the money, that would still give a huge advantage to the wealthy. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ads-paid-for-by-secret-money-flood-the-midterm-elections-on-the-gop-side/700994/42 "2014-10-15T03:56:15Z")
Problem is, you can’t do an ad campaign with $2500, so you’re effectively making it illegal to do political advocacy on the airwaves unless you’re a politician, and thus “authorized” to speak. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ads-paid-for-by-secret-money-flood-the-midterm-elections-on-the-gop-side/700994/43 "2014-10-15T04:12:32Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Problem is, you can’t do an ad campaign with $2500, so you’re effectively making it illegal to do political advocacy on the airwaves unless you’re a politician, and thus “authorized” to speak. I would say there is a difference between NYT running a pro Hillary story, and things like robo calls, mailers or commericals. I’m more concerned about advertisements. You have to seek out news. Advertisements are thrust upon you. And a group of people can get together (and keep records of who donated how much) and run an ad campaign. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ads-paid-for-by-secret-money-flood-the-midterm-elections-on-the-gop-side/700994/44 "2014-10-15T04:39:00Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > I would say there is a difference between NYT running a pro Hillary story, and things like robo calls, mailers or commericals. Commercials are the only things that are subject to limits. If you’re proposing limits on GOTV efforts, then I think you’ll find pretty broad opposition from all sides of the spectrum. > [@](#): > > I’m more concerned about advertisements. You have to seek out news. Advertisements are thrust upon you. And a group of people can get together (and keep records of who donated how much) and run an ad campaign. Anonymity is part of our tradition and more necessary than ever after Brandon Eich. As for ads, just get rid of them entirely on the airwaves. Make them internet only, with an option to skip after 5 seconds like Youtube does. That’s the most democratizing way to do political advocacy of all, since internet advertising costs only a fraction of what TV advertising costs. ---
**Author:** ![BigAppleBucky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigapplebucky/32/178_2.png) [@BigAppleBucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigAppleBucky)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ads-paid-for-by-secret-money-flood-the-midterm-elections-on-the-gop-side/700994/45 "2014-10-15T18:36:26Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I’d be concerned if money bought elections. The Democrats are substantially outspending Republicans. **FALSE!** In straight up, honest campaign money, the Democrats are slightly ahead or at least very close. In dark, secret, dishonest money, the Republican lead is substantial. **Read the article.** ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ads-paid-for-by-secret-money-flood-the-midterm-elections-on-the-gop-side/700994/46 "2014-10-15T19:00:50Z")
> [@E-DUB](#): > > I know you can’t keep money out of politics. But if we can’t do that, we can at least require honest and full disclosure of it so we know who’s buying whom. > > And no hiding behind group names like “Citizens for good government and puppies”. > > You have the right to speak to the world, you do not have the right to do so with a figurative bag over your head. Yes, you do. > [@](#): > > Anonymous pamphlets, leaflets, brochures and even books have played an important role in the progress of mankind. Persecuted groups and sects from time to time throughout history have been able to criticize oppressive practices and laws either anonymously or not at all. The obnoxious press licensing law of England, which was also enforced on the Colonies was due in part to the knowledge that exposure of the names of printers, writers and distributors would lessen the circulation of literature critical of the government. The old seditious libel cases in England show the lengths to which government had to go to find out who was responsible for books that were obnoxious to the rulers. > > John Lilburne was whipped, pilloried and fined for refusing to answer questions designed to get evidence to convict him or someone else for the secret distribution of books in England. Two Puritan Ministers, John Penry and John Udal, were sentenced to death on charges that they were responsible for writing, printing or publishing books. Before the Revolutionary War colonial patriots frequently had to conceal their authorship or distribution of literature that easily could have brought down on them prosecutions by English-controlled courts. Along about that time the Letters of Junius were written and the identity of their author is unknown to this day. Even the Federalist Papers, written in favor of the adoption of our Constitution, were published under fictitious names. It is plain that anonymity has sometimes been assumed for the most constructive purposes. (Quoting _Talley v. California_, 362 U.S. 60 (1960), a case that invalidated a Los Angeles ordinance that forbid anonymous pamphlets from being distributed). What cases were you thinking of that held the contrary, specifically? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ads-paid-for-by-secret-money-flood-the-midterm-elections-on-the-gop-side/700994/47 "2014-10-15T21:29:22Z")
> [@E-DUB](#): > > I know you can’t keep money out of politics. But if we can’t do that, we can at least require honest and full disclosure of it so we know who’s buying whom. > > And no hiding behind group names like “Citizens for good government and puppies”. > > You have the right to speak to the world, you do not have the right to do so with a figurative bag over your head. Exactly. The Federal Department of the Proper Naming of Groups needs to do a better job enforcing that rule!! ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2014, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ads-paid-for-by-secret-money-flood-the-midterm-elections-on-the-gop-side/700994/48 "2014-10-16T21:09:10Z")
> [@BigAppleBucky](#): > > **FALSE!** > > In straight up, honest campaign money, the Democrats are slightly ahead or at least very close. In dark, secret, dishonest money, the Republican lead is substantial. > > **Read the article.** Perhaps you should read the article. It does not say which party is spending more _in total_. The Democrats are ahead in donations to actual campaigns and spending through “SuperPACs”; groups that lean Republican spend more in “dark money”. Which side is spending more total? That article doesn’t say, though other sources are reporting that it’s the Democrats. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2014, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ads-paid-for-by-secret-money-flood-the-midterm-elections-on-the-gop-side/700994/49 "2014-10-16T23:59:39Z")
And the reason for the dark money is the retaliation against Republican donors. If Republican politicians and activists targeted Democratic donors the way Democrats target Republican donors we’d be hearing cries of creeping fascism. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2014, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ads-paid-for-by-secret-money-flood-the-midterm-elections-on-the-gop-side/700994/50 "2014-10-17T01:33:09Z")
Haven’t heard much about Republican donors cringing in fear of the people’s justice, but it sounds like the sort of things that would give me a good dark and malicious chuckle. So share. Pics, if you got them. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2014, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ads-paid-for-by-secret-money-flood-the-midterm-elections-on-the-gop-side/700994/51 "2014-10-17T03:16:38Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > And the reason for the dark money is the retaliation against Republican donors. And you know that how? ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2014, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ads-paid-for-by-secret-money-flood-the-midterm-elections-on-the-gop-side/700994/52 "2014-10-17T03:40:05Z")
> [@BigAppleBucky](#): > > Ads paid for by Secret Money Flood the Midterm Elections on the GOP side > > Well, mostly, but Democrats do it too - sometimes. > … > Government by and for corporations and billionaires. If you don’t like the government that the GOP and the Democrats give you, you’re free to vote for someone other than the GOP and the Democrats. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2014, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ads-paid-for-by-secret-money-flood-the-midterm-elections-on-the-gop-side/700994/53 "2014-10-17T04:59:41Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > And you know that how? Brandon Eich and the Koch Brothers. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2014, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ads-paid-for-by-secret-money-flood-the-midterm-elections-on-the-gop-side/700994/54 "2014-10-17T14:02:21Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Brandon Eich and the Koch Brothers. What about them? ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2014, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ads-paid-for-by-secret-money-flood-the-midterm-elections-on-the-gop-side/700994/55 "2014-10-17T14:15:41Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Brandon Eich and the Koch Brothers. Brandon Eich was a function of the free market. No one retaliated against him because of his donations to anti-gay causes. He resigned. He wasn’t fired. The government didn’t come get him. He resigned, due to the fallout over the cause he was supporting. The first amendment does not protect anyone from the consequences of their speech. He’s entitled to support whatever causes he wants, and people are free to have opinions about him as a result of that. What is the controversy here? This is the proper functioning of a free market, and I see no outside interference, so please explain this retaliation you are referring to and how it pertains to this story. And the Koch Brothers? What retaliation has been carried out against them? Oh, Harry Reid said some mean things about them? Boo freaking hoo. Again, the first amendment contains nothing to protect anyone from the consequences of their speech. They can spend whatever money they want to try to influence the country, and the rest of us citizens are free to have whatever opinions we wish about them. Freedom of speech does not mean that no one can think bad things about you because of something you said. Again, where is this retaliation you speak of? Saying something mean is not retaliation, no matter how badly their little fee fees might get hurt. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2014, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ads-paid-for-by-secret-money-flood-the-midterm-elections-on-the-gop-side/700994/56 "2014-10-17T15:56:56Z")
Regardless of where the retaliation comes from, people from all sides may have reasons to keep their advocacy anonymous. If that wasn’t the case, we don’t need a secret ballot either, now do we? Just post everyone’s vote online. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2014, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ads-paid-for-by-secret-money-flood-the-midterm-elections-on-the-gop-side/700994/57 "2014-10-17T16:17:02Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Regardless of where the retaliation comes from, people from all sides may have reasons to keep their advocacy anonymous. If that wasn’t the case, we don’t need a secret ballot either, now do we? Just post everyone’s vote online. So in other words you have nothing. No answer at all about the retaliation you’re complaining about. Figured as much. There is no constitutional protection from getting your feelings hurt by other citizens. This imaginary victim hood is getting to be too much. Politics is rough business. Don’t get involved if you aren’t willing to stand up for your beliefs, even if it means a mean Democrat might _gasp_ insult you. Heaven forbid. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2014, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ads-paid-for-by-secret-money-flood-the-midterm-elections-on-the-gop-side/700994/58 "2014-10-18T00:24:04Z")
Since there is actually a 1st amendment right to advocate anonymously, your the one who has to live with the state of affairs as they are now. I was just explaining why people might choose to exercise that right. But for now, you could practice what you preach and post your real name. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2014, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ads-paid-for-by-secret-money-flood-the-midterm-elections-on-the-gop-side/700994/59 "2014-10-18T01:33:50Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Since there is actually a 1st amendment right to advocate anonymously, your the one who has to live with the state of affairs as they are now. I was just explaining why people might choose to exercise that right. > > But for now, you could practice what you preach and post your real name. So you’re just dropping the whole ‘conservatives are retaliated against for their views’ thing then? How were Brandon Eich and the Koch Brothers retaliated against, and by whom? What rights were violated by this retaliation? Or are you just going to go with the ol’ change the subject gambit again? That does seem to be your only trick. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2014, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ads-paid-for-by-secret-money-flood-the-midterm-elections-on-the-gop-side/700994/60 "2014-10-18T03:09:34Z")
I was simply saying that conservatives have reason to fear retaliation and that it does occur. Not necessarily from the government, although I wouldn’t put it past Democrats to try to punish the Kochs using bills of attainder disguised as legitimate revenue bills. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ads-paid-for-by-secret-money-flood-the-midterm-elections-on-the-gop-side/700994.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ads-paid-for-by-secret-money-flood-the-midterm-elections-on-the-gop-side/700994.md?page=4)