# Adult bicyclists: get off the damn sidewalk! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 16, 2007, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adult-bicyclists-get-off-the-damn-sidewalk/396118 "2007-03-16T01:08:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2007, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adult-bicyclists-get-off-the-damn-sidewalk/396118/281 "2007-03-21T18:45:04Z")
[QUOTE=Lute Skywatcher] [#234](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=8377540&highlight=hills#post8377540). [/QUOTE] Are you referring to this quote: > [@catsix](#): > > The hills are so steep and long that I don’t see the average bike rider out there, typically they stick to one of the more level roads in the area. It doesn’t say the more level roads lead to the same destination. And **catsix** , please be more careful with your quote attributions. You’re confusing me with **Rick**. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2007, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adult-bicyclists-get-off-the-damn-sidewalk/396118/282 "2007-03-21T18:49:14Z")
[QUOTE=lowbrass] Why is that relevant? Should a driver be excused from being prepared to deal with whatever conditions might be present because a particular condition is rare? We rarely have hailstorms where I live, but on the 2 times in the last 5 years that we _did_, I still knew how to react. [/quote] No, a driver should _not_ be excused from not being ready for whatever might happen on the roads. But I live in the D.C. exurbs these days, and this area is famous for drivers not knowing how to handle sloppy winter weather, despite its happening _every fucking year_. The fact is that, as a bicycle rider, there are places where _I can’t count on cars being ready for me_, no matter what the requirement. If I get crunched by a car on a road such as **catsix** and I are talking about, and my estate nails the driver for a hefty sum in a civil suit, that won’t exactly bring me back to life, but the driver will be held responsible. > [@](#): > > We’re just going in circles on this. If you don’t allow yourself enough time to slow down to avoid an obstacle, you’re driving too fast. **I** ’m not driving. (Or at least, I’m not thinking about this from that POV.) _I’m on the freakin’ bicycle_. > [@](#): > > Do you mean to say that every time you’ve come around a blind corner and encountered an obstacle, you’ve hit it? Are you in the habit of flying around blind corners and just _hoping_ nothing’s in the way on the other side? No, but there are sure a lot of damned fools who do, and you know what? From my POV on the seat of a bicycle, _it only takes one_. > [@](#): > > I disagree. Dealing with bicycles is not difficult at all. You were claiming it was _routine_. Dealing with bicycles is not routine at all for many drivers, especially those in a lot of rural areas. > [@](#): > > If you are not mentally equipped to deal with them, you shouldn’t be driving. If there is a road you feel you cannot navigate in your car, under the conditions present on that road, without danger, you should not drive on that road. OK, what’s your solution for getting all the bozos off the road who don’t meet your standards? Illuminate me. This ain’t a perfect world, and I can’t rely on perfect drivers. Your answer to that is that the crappy ones should turn in their licenses - but they won’t. That’s the limitation I’m working with here. Show me how you make it go away. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2007, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adult-bicyclists-get-off-the-damn-sidewalk/396118/283 "2007-03-21T18:53:03Z")
> [@](#): > > **scr4** said: > I guess I missed that. Which post would that be? Posts. Plural. Going back two pages from here. > [@](#): > > **me in post #170** said: > It’s not all that common to see bicycles on that section of road, but there are a few who seem unable to resist it. > [@](#): > > **me in post #224** said: > I don’t ‘fear hitting a bicycle’. There are extremely few bicycles on that road, far less than there are deer and other animals, and the odds on any day of even seeing a bike are pretty low. > [@](#): > > **me in post #234** said: > I’ve seen them on the shoulder, but it’s kind of narrow and it’s not paved so they’re usually over by the white line when they are on that road, which isn’t all that often. The hills are so steep and long that I don’t see the average bike rider out there, typically they stick to one of the more level roads in the area. > [@](#): > > **in post #234 I** also said: > I’ve probably seen bicycles 20 or 30 times in the last 13 years of driving that road, which I do pretty frequently. Biking to work isn’t a big thing out here, and few people do it who don’t live and work inside the city of Pittsburgh. > [@](#): > > **and in post #260 i** said: > You’re right, it’s not commonplace here. I’ve seen it less than twenty times in thirteen years of driving that road. So there ya go. While I never counted the exact number of times, I’d guess it to be less than twenty or thirty times, and I’ve been driving on that road almost daily for well over a decade. It’s **maybe once or twice per summer** , and no more. > [@](#): > > **scr4** said: > And catsix, please be more careful with your quote attributions. You’re confusing me with Rick. My mistake. That one was **Rick**. It was still you who wanted to know when I said it was uncommon to see a bicycle on that road, right? ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2007, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adult-bicyclists-get-off-the-damn-sidewalk/396118/284 "2007-03-21T18:54:20Z")
[QUOTE=scr4] It doesn’t say the more level roads lead to the same destination. [/QUOTE] Who said it did? I don’t know about you but I’ll go out of my way to take the most level–and safer–route. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2007, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adult-bicyclists-get-off-the-damn-sidewalk/396118/285 "2007-03-21T18:58:17Z")
[QUOTE=Lute Skywatcher] Who said it did? I don’t know about you but I’ll go out of my way to take the most level–and safer–route. [/QUOTE] How is it an “alternate route” if it doesn’t get me to where I want/need to go? ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2007, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adult-bicyclists-get-off-the-damn-sidewalk/396118/286 "2007-03-21T19:04:07Z")
[QUOTE=catsix] Posts. Plural. Going back two pages from here. [/quote] None of your posts say cyclists have an alternative for getting to where they need/want to go. > [@](#): > > It was still you who wanted to know when I said it was uncommon to see a bicycle on that road, right? No. I personally don’t see what that has to do with the issue. On any road, you should be driving in such a way that you can avoid _unexpected_ obstacles on the road. That includes road debris, broken down cars, car accident scenes, farm equipment, slow trucks, and bicycles. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2007, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adult-bicyclists-get-off-the-damn-sidewalk/396118/287 "2007-03-21T19:05:38Z")
[QUOTE=catsix] Whoever it was that said they would automatically think it’s the car driver’s fault in any accident involving a car and a bicycle is fucking deluded. [/QUOTE] Actually, that was me. My first assumption would be, yes, that it’s the driver’s fault for going too fast and not paying attention. And this is me, speaking as someone who drives almost every day and has last sat on a bike, oh, maybe ten years ago. Honestly, to me it seems like watching bicyclists (presumably following traffic laws) on a hilly, rural road is a piece of cake compared to the shit you see bicycle messengers do zipping in and out of traffic, going the wrong way on one way streets, going through lights, etc., in downtown Chicago. In a case like cyclists in downtown Chicago, I’d be more inclined not to have the assumption of guilt side with the motorist. On a rural road, I’m having difficulty imagining a situation in which the law would decide the cyclist is the guilty party. If that makes me “fucking deluded” (you sure have a way with words, girl), fine. I don’t understand what your problem is since I agree with your basic premise that a bicyclist is probably not being very prudent for driving on this road. However, I don’t think he’s being stupid because of his inability to handle his vehicle–I think he’s being stupid because others may not be as careful as he is. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2007, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adult-bicyclists-get-off-the-damn-sidewalk/396118/288 "2007-03-21T19:24:56Z")
> [@](#): > > **scr4** said: > None of your posts say cyclists have an alternative for getting to where they need/want to go. However at least one of them did say that people out here don’t routinely bike to work. Do you have any experience at all living in a rural area? > [@](#): > > No. I personally don’t see what that has to do with the issue. Then why the fuck did you ask? > [@](#): > > On any road, you should be driving in such a way that you can avoid unexpected obstacles on the road. That includes road debris, broken down cars, car accident scenes, farm equipment, slow trucks, and bicycles. And it doesn’t mean an accident will never happen, nor does it mean that the person driving the car is automatically at fault in an accident involving a bicycle. There is no way to prevent **every** accident. > [@](#): > > **pulykamell** said: > Honestly, to me it seems like watching bicyclists (presumably following traffic laws) on a hilly, rural road is a piece of cake compared to the shit you see bicycle messengers do zipping in and out of traffic, going the wrong way on one way streets, going through lights, etc., in downtown Chicago. You’ve never been here, have you? I’ve driven in major cities with lots of bicycles, and in the country where I live now, and bicycles are **way easier to deal with** in the city. > [@](#): > > On a rural road, I’m having difficulty imagining a situation in which the law would decide the cyclist is the guilty party. Would you find it reasonable for someone to walk down the middle of the lane on one of these rural two-lane highways? > [@](#): > > However, I don’t think he’s being stupid because of his inability to handle his vehicle–I think he’s being stupid because others may not be as careful as he is. Not every accident is the result of a driver who isn’t being careful. Accidents happen for a lot of reasons, and some of them aren’t possible to avoid no matter how hard you try. The time I was in the back seat of the car that was rear ended, after we were hit, our car was propelled forward by the impact and stopped nearly a hundred feet later after hitting another car. Because the rear bumper was wrapped around the rear wheels, they never turned. The car actually **slid** that far. Being careful is important, but it’s not a magic pill that stops all accidents from ever happening. And sometimes, being careful means that when you’re riding a bike, you don’t do it in places where you’re going to be a breathing roadblock that’s hard to see. So yeah, I think you’re fucking deluded. You have unrealistic expectations of car drivers either achieving perfection or never driving, and don’t think bicycle riders have any duty at all to consider that there may be places where it is, for one reason or another, too damn dangerous for them to be. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2007, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adult-bicyclists-get-off-the-damn-sidewalk/396118/289 "2007-03-21T19:28:54Z")
[QUOTE=catsix] Do you have any experience at all living in a rural area? [/quote] No, but I’ve been on many bike rides in rural areas. > [@](#): > > Then why the fuck did you ask? I don’t believe I did. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2007, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adult-bicyclists-get-off-the-damn-sidewalk/396118/290 "2007-03-21T19:38:18Z")
After **Lute Skywatcher** pointed out that you were defending your right to ride on a road that you yourself would avoid riding on. You and **lowbrass** argued from the standpoint that bikes are ‘commonplace’ on roads, and when pointed out to you that not only had you yourself said in a previous thread that you avoid riding on roads such as the one I described, but that I’d said riding bicycles on this road is not at all common, you suddenly got very interested in where I pointed this out, as if to say I’d never mentioned that there are very few bicycles on that road. When I showed you the numerous locations where I stated that, in fact, few people ride their bikes to work here, let alone on that particular road, you then claimed that it doesn’t matter anyway. There’s a word for what you’re doing. That word is ‘weaseling’. ---
**Author:** ![lowbrass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dc4da7/32.png) [@lowbrass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lowbrass)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2007, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adult-bicyclists-get-off-the-damn-sidewalk/396118/291 "2007-03-21T20:00:29Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] OK, what’s your solution for getting all the bozos off the road who don’t meet your standards? Illuminate me. This ain’t a perfect world, and I can’t rely on perfect drivers. Your answer to that is that the crappy ones should turn in their licenses - but they won’t. That’s the limitation I’m working with here. Show me how you make it go away. [/QUOTE] I feel like you guys are gaming me here. I already said I agree that if route A is safer than route B, then you should take route A. What is it that you are imagining we disagree on? Catsix keeps saying things like bicyclists who ride slower than traffic are “self-entitled assholes”. When I respond, then YOU jump on me with the unrelated argument that it’s better to use a safer route if you can. Well, no shit. That’s a strawman. Why don’t you just let catsix fight his/her own battles without making up more reasonable positions and attributing them to catsix? If you believe that bicyclists are “self-entitled assholes” because the _car_ drivers on the road are bozos and can’t avoid hitting them, I disagree. If that’s not your contention, then we don’t disagree. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2007, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adult-bicyclists-get-off-the-damn-sidewalk/396118/292 "2007-03-21T20:00:51Z")
[QUOTE=scr4] How is it an “alternate route” if it doesn’t get me to where I want/need to go? [/QUOTE] How is it not an “alternate route” if it can indirectly get you where you want/need to go? ---
**Author:** ![lowbrass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dc4da7/32.png) [@lowbrass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lowbrass)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2007, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adult-bicyclists-get-off-the-damn-sidewalk/396118/293 "2007-03-21T20:11:37Z")
[QUOTE=catsix] Doesn’t stop them from crawling up those hills at a snail’s pace while the car drivers who are traveling 50 mph have to slam their brakes on to avoid hitting the bike and or swerving into oncoming traffic. [/quote] > [@](#): > > The speed limit is set at 50 mph because the state has determined that it is safe to travel that road at 50 mph. > [@](#): > > Or do you really think that speeds of under 5 mph are reasonable in a zone where the state has set the speed limit at 50 mph? > [@](#): > > State law requires that slow moving vehicles not impede the flow of traffic, which means a bike going 3 mph should not be on the road with traffic that flows at 50 mph. > [@](#): > > I’m driving that road at a speed that coincides with the flow of traffic so that I don’t get hammered by a tri-axle stone cowboy from the back end and because, get this, the state driver’s manual actually says that’s what you’re supposed to do. > [@](#): > > As you can see, it says to drive with the flow of traffic and within the posted speed limit. Which means that for that road, 50 mph is perfectly reasonable. > > Being rear-ended is a greater danger to me than coming up on some moron on a bicycle who thinks it’s perfectly acceptable to do 3 mph in a 50 mph zone. * * * > [@](#): > > You and **lowbrass** have fixated the 50 mph as if there is no fluctuation in speed, but **RTFirefly** has it right, there are constant adjustments in speed going on when you drive these hilly, twisting rural roads. Yeah, _we’re_ fixated on it. Whatever you say. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2007, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adult-bicyclists-get-off-the-damn-sidewalk/396118/294 "2007-03-21T20:20:19Z")
[QUOTE=lowbrass] Yeah, _we’re_ fixated on it. Whatever you say. :rolleyes: [/QUOTE] You could try _asking_ what the speed is on those hills and curves instead of just assuming everyone flies by, hoping there’s nothing in the way on the other side. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2007, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adult-bicyclists-get-off-the-damn-sidewalk/396118/295 "2007-03-21T20:29:26Z")
[QUOTE=catsix] So yeah, I think you’re fucking deluded. You have unrealistic expectations of car drivers either achieving perfection or never driving, and don’t think bicycle riders have any duty at all to consider that there may be places where it is, for one reason or another, too damn dangerous for them to be. [/QUOTE] I don’t believe that’s what I said at all, but if that’s what you divined from my words, okay. I don’t think driving carefully enough to react to a roadside obstruction is an “unrealistic expectation” by any stretch of the phrase, but obviously, YMMV. I will respectfully disagree with you and leave it at that. ---
**Author:** ![lowbrass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dc4da7/32.png) [@lowbrass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lowbrass)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2007, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adult-bicyclists-get-off-the-damn-sidewalk/396118/296 "2007-03-21T20:45:18Z")
[QUOTE=Lute Skywatcher] You could try _asking_ what the speed is on those hills and curves instead of just assuming everyone flies by, hoping there’s nothing in the way on the other side. [/QUOTE] I have assumed nothing. I am, in every case, responding to the posts of others. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2007, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adult-bicyclists-get-off-the-damn-sidewalk/396118/297 "2007-03-21T20:46:22Z")
[QUOTE=Lute Skywatcher] How is it not an “alternate route” if it can indirectly get you where you want/need to go? [/QUOTE] Can it? And how indirectly? ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2007, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adult-bicyclists-get-off-the-damn-sidewalk/396118/298 "2007-03-21T20:50:19Z")
[QUOTE=scr4] Can it? And how indirectly? [/QUOTE] Now you’re just trying to split hairs. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2007, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adult-bicyclists-get-off-the-damn-sidewalk/396118/299 "2007-03-21T20:52:46Z")
[QUOTE=lowbrass] I have assumed nothing. I am, in every case, responding to the posts of others. [/QUOTE] Then can you tell me who is in the habit of flying around blind corners and just hoping nothing’s in the way on the other side? ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2007, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adult-bicyclists-get-off-the-damn-sidewalk/396118/300 "2007-03-21T20:57:33Z")
[QUOTE=catsix] Would you find it reasonable for someone to walk down the middle of the lane on one of these rural two-lane highways? [/QUOTE] One last thing, and this is perhaps where our differences lay. Would it be reasonable? No. Would I say it’s my fault if I hit a pedestrian walking down the middle of the road with my car? In most cases, yes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adult-bicyclists-get-off-the-damn-sidewalk/396118.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adult-bicyclists-get-off-the-damn-sidewalk/396118.md?page=16)