# Adult bicyclists: get off the damn sidewalk! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 16, 2007, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adult-bicyclists-get-off-the-damn-sidewalk/396118 "2007-03-16T01:08:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Red\_Barchetta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/da6949/32.png) [@Red\_Barchetta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Barchetta)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2007, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adult-bicyclists-get-off-the-damn-sidewalk/396118/101 "2007-03-17T18:50:18Z")
[QUOTE=JThunder] I usually stick to the sidewalk, since the streets just aren’t safe. I don’t go as fast as many other cyclists, though. Does this make me look wimpy? Perhaps… but I do maintain better visibility that way. [/QUOTE] I’ve never thought of a cyclist on the sidewalk as “wimpy.” I consider it to be quite smart actually; I’ve rarely seen problems caused by them…except when my grandfather got ran over a few years ago and had to go through extensive reconstructive surgery ☹ ---
**Author:** ![lowbrass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dc4da7/32.png) [@lowbrass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lowbrass)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2007, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adult-bicyclists-get-off-the-damn-sidewalk/396118/102 "2007-03-17T18:55:11Z")
[QUOTE=Red Barchetta] I’ll concede I may have misinterpreted his statement, but it does seem like a needlessly pointless observation… [/QUOTE] Really? You were screaming about how horribly insulted you were that he made this strawman argument, but now that you admit it wasn’t a strawman, you say the issue is pointless? Didn’t seem pointless to you when you were whingeing about it. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2007, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adult-bicyclists-get-off-the-damn-sidewalk/396118/103 "2007-03-17T18:55:26Z")
Anybody stop to think about the locational disconnect here? For instance, where I live (Phoenix, AZ), there are bicycle lanes on almost every street busy enough to need them. I know for a fact that the same cannot be said of most areas in South Carolina. I’d be much less comfortable riding without a bike lane, especially if there was an empty sidewalk 10 feet to my right. ---
**Author:** ![Rucksinator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/898d66/32.png) [@Rucksinator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rucksinator)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2007, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adult-bicyclists-get-off-the-damn-sidewalk/396118/104 "2007-03-17T19:00:46Z")
[QUOTE=scr4] In the situation you describe, did you not see the cyclists from a good distance? Did you not have adequate time to change lanes or slow down to avoid hitting the cyclists? If so, why do you think the cyclists were in danger? [/QUOTE] I was, but that doesn’t mean that everybody would have. The road had a few curves, and usually was barely wide enough for 2 cars. It was post-rush hour traffic – busy enough that you usually had a car to the side of you, but not so busy that you couldn’t do 40 mph. All it takes is one person coming around a bend while answering the phone. They would have been far safer on the sidewalk. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Barchetta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/da6949/32.png) [@Red\_Barchetta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Barchetta)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2007, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adult-bicyclists-get-off-the-damn-sidewalk/396118/105 "2007-03-17T19:15:21Z")
[QUOTE=lowbrass] Really? You were screaming about how horribly insulted you were that he made this strawman argument, but now that you admit it wasn’t a strawman, you say the issue is pointless? Didn’t seem pointless to you when you were whingeing about it. [/QUOTE] What? Let’s go over this again. He made a statement I interpreted as an attack of an argument I did not make. Upon clarification, I realized it was a relatively benign declaration, which had little relevance to the conversation, imo. So to summarize, as you seemingly require it, using a strawman fallacy absolutely provides something to take issue with, as opposed to an off-the-cuff statement, that bore little relevance to what I was stating, to which I concede. With that cleared up, I would like for you to explain how my statement, “You seem to be attacking a strawman. Please point out to me where I denied your right to be on the street?” is somehow interpreted as “screaming” and me feeling "horribly insulted,"from your perspective? ---
**Author:** ![lowbrass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dc4da7/32.png) [@lowbrass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lowbrass)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2007, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adult-bicyclists-get-off-the-damn-sidewalk/396118/106 "2007-03-17T19:22:38Z")
[QUOTE=JThunder] A careful cyclist is unlikely to injure anybody on the sidewalk – and even if the does cause an accident, it’s unlikely to be fatal. [/quote] A careful motorist is unlikely to injure anyone on the road. So where does this get us? > [@](#): > > In contrast, being hit by an automobile would be far more life-threatening. So your argument is that it’s correct to ride a bicycle on the sidewalk because the pedestrians you hit would probably only be injured and not killed? Again, that’s a self centered argument. You’re saying that if you are a bicyclist, that although it’s less safe for pedestrians, it’s safer for _you_. Not only is it a crummy argument, it’s not even TRUE. [This](http://bicycleuniverse.info/transpo/almanac-safety.html) site links to a survey which shows that “Riding on the sidewalk is several more times more dangerous than riding in the street.” Survey url: > **[Adult Bicyclists in the United States](https://www.bicyclinglife.com/Library/Moritz2.htm)** Fatal bicycle accidents aren’t as common as you think. There were 725 in 2004, as compared to over 100 fatal auto accidents every DAY. Cars may seem big, noisy and scary to you, but you’re actually safer riding in the street where you’re supposed to, and if you follow the rules you’ll be fine. ---
**Author:** ![lowbrass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dc4da7/32.png) [@lowbrass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lowbrass)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2007, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adult-bicyclists-get-off-the-damn-sidewalk/396118/107 "2007-03-17T19:25:59Z")
[QUOTE=Red Barchetta] What? Let’s go over this again. He made a statement I interpreted as an attack of an argument I did not make. Upon clarification, I realized it was a relatively benign declaration, which had little relevance to the conversation, imo. [/QUOTE] Interesting that it seemed an important enough issue for you to _raise in the first place_, but not important enough for me to correct you on. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Canadjun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@Canadjun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Canadjun)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2007, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adult-bicyclists-get-off-the-damn-sidewalk/396118/108 "2007-03-17T19:27:27Z")
There are multiple problems here, and I think that is what is causing the controversy. [ul] [li]Many drivers don’t believe that bicycles belong in the road (even though in many jurisdictions that is exactly where they belong).[/li][li]Many (most?) bicyclists know that they DO have the right to bicycle on the road regardless of the opinion of any given driver, however see below.[/li][li]Since many drivers don’t believe that bicycles belong in the road they refuse to take bicyclists into account when they are driving, and in some cases actively try to “discourage” those bicyclists.[/li][li]Many (most?) of the bicyclists that are on the road refuse to obey traffic laws (e.g. stop signs, one-way streets, traffic lights, etc.)[/li][li]Bicyclists seem to think that curb cuts at corners are made for them.[/li][/ul] People (including me) for the most part bicycled on the road when I was growing up because that was before the time of curb cuts at almost all corners. There wasn’t mass carnage, even on busy streets. Seems to me the only solution is stepped up advertising AND ENFORCEMENT. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a bicyclist get ticketed when a great many of them should be able to paper their walls with tickets given the number of laws they ignore. Equally, drivers should be ticketed a lot more strenuously for disregarding bicyclists under circumstances where bicyclists have a legal right to be where they are. ---
**Author:** ![Long\_Time\_Lurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/2bfe46/32.png) [@Long\_Time\_Lurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Long_Time_Lurker)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2007, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adult-bicyclists-get-off-the-damn-sidewalk/396118/109 "2007-03-17T19:40:42Z")
[QUOTE=Canadjun] Seems to me the only solution is stepped up advertising AND ENFORCEMENT. [/QUOTE] Absolutely, the police need to spend more resources stopping these dangerous criminals. J-walkers, people who drive 66mph on the highway, people engaging in deviate oral intercourse, bicyclists who don’t wait at red lights, and those bastards who read magazines and put them back on the rack. If the police aren’t going to do something, I say we take the law into our own hands and lynch them! Who’s with me!? ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2007, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adult-bicyclists-get-off-the-damn-sidewalk/396118/110 "2007-03-17T19:44:34Z")
[QUOTE=Red Barchetta] Now you’re splitting hairs. I see enough bicyclists breaking the law to make the distinction unremarkable. [/QUOTE] So basically, your argument boils down to: “Cyclists should not be allowed on the road because they often break the law.” Did I understand you correctly? ---
**Author:** ![lowbrass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dc4da7/32.png) [@lowbrass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lowbrass)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2007, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adult-bicyclists-get-off-the-damn-sidewalk/396118/111 "2007-03-17T20:02:59Z")
[QUOTE=Long Time Lurker] Absolutely, the police need to spend more resources stopping these dangerous criminals. J-walkers, people who drive 66mph on the highway, people engaging in deviate oral intercourse, bicyclists who don’t wait at red lights, and those bastards who read magazines and put them back on the rack. If the police aren’t going to do something, I say we take the law into our own hands and lynch them! Who’s with me!? [/QUOTE] And hence the problem: people who believe that running a red light is as innocuous as reading a magazine in a store. I just don’t understand people who think the law doesn’t apply to them. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Barchetta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/da6949/32.png) [@Red\_Barchetta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Barchetta)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2007, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adult-bicyclists-get-off-the-damn-sidewalk/396118/112 "2007-03-17T20:03:01Z")
[QUOTE=lowbrass] Interesting that it seemed an important enough issue for you to _raise in the first place_, but not important enough for me to correct you on. :dubious: [/QUOTE] I don’t even know what this means? What do you mean by "not important enough for [you] to correct [me] on? I conceded I appeared to be mistaken; what more do you want? I’m still curious, though as to how you interpreted my “you seem to be attacking a strawman. Please point out to me where I denied your right to be on the street” statement as “screaming” and me feeling "horribly insulted,"from your perspective? ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Barchetta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/da6949/32.png) [@Red\_Barchetta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Barchetta)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2007, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adult-bicyclists-get-off-the-damn-sidewalk/396118/113 "2007-03-17T20:05:20Z")
[QUOTE=scr4] So basically, your argument boils down to: “Cyclists should not be allowed on the road because they often break the law.” Did I understand you correctly? [/QUOTE] Until there’s a better alternative, the bikers in my part of the woods are a sufficient danger, imo, to warrant such an action. Again, I’m talking about where I live, my frame of reference may not apply to your’s, and as such, our views may fundamentally be incompatible due to ignorance by virtue of geography. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2007, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adult-bicyclists-get-off-the-damn-sidewalk/396118/114 "2007-03-17T20:48:13Z")
[QUOTE=Rucksinator] I was, but that doesn’t mean that everybody would have. The road had a few curves, and usually was barely wide enough for 2 cars. It was post-rush hour traffic – busy enough that you usually had a car to the side of you, but not so busy that you couldn’t do 40 mph. All it takes is one person coming around a bend while answering the phone. They would have been far safer on the sidewalk. [/QUOTE] Now let’s talk about that inattentive driver talking on the cell phone. Which do you think is more likely: that he fails to notice a cyclist directly ahead in his lane, or he fails to notice a cyclist about to come out of a sidewalk and into the intersection? ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2007, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adult-bicyclists-get-off-the-damn-sidewalk/396118/115 "2007-03-17T20:50:26Z")
[QUOTE=Red Barchetta] Until there’s a better alternative, the bikers in my part of the woods are a sufficient danger, imo, to warrant such an action. [/QUOTE] In other words, we shouldn’t give them a chance to break the law and endanger themselves? Would it not be better to just _enforce_ those laws? Based on my observation, a majority of drivers drive at unsafe speeds on rainy days. Would I be equally justified in calling for a ban on all automobile traffic on rainy days? ---
**Author:** ![Long\_Time\_Lurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/2bfe46/32.png) [@Long\_Time\_Lurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Long_Time_Lurker)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2007, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adult-bicyclists-get-off-the-damn-sidewalk/396118/116 "2007-03-17T20:53:42Z")
[QUOTE=lowbrass] And hence the problem: people who believe that running a red light is as innocuous as reading a magazine in a store. I just don’t understand people who think the law doesn’t apply to them. [/QUOTE] Of course you chose the magazine example rather than the others I posted. Let’s compare to jaywalking. Ever crossed the street against the red? I never said the law didn’t apply to me, but I’m not losing sleep over that particular misdemeanor. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2007, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adult-bicyclists-get-off-the-damn-sidewalk/396118/117 "2007-03-17T21:01:00Z")
[QUOTE=Rucksinator] It’s not a matter of ignorance. I happen to think that a child’s safety trumps the laws in certain, specific situations like the one that I described. I’m sorry, but I don’t share the “better dead than a lawbreaker” attitude that you seem to have. On preview… I didn’t honk behind the child. But don’t let anything get in the way of the image of me that you have painted in your head. [/QUOTE] WTF? Let’s go back and review the tape > [@](#): > > When I was working in Columbia, SC, I once angrily **honked** my horn at a lady riding her bike on the street. If I sound like an asshole, please let me finish setting up the story: I was driving down a busy street. She was riding on the road on a bike. Following her was a child on a child’s bike. Two feet to her right was an unused sidewalk. **I honked** because I was going too much faster than she was to have the time to roll down my window and shout: “You dumb cunt, you’re a bad mother, and you’re going to get your child killed!” (Bolding and sizing mine to help the memory impaired) :dubious: If the child was “following her was a child” I can only assume that if the lady was within hearing distance of your horn, so was the child. Have you ever stood just in front a car and unexpectedly had some one hit the horn? Did it scare you, or make you jump, or flinch? Now imagine that you are a young child learning to ride a bike, and that happens just off your left ear. > [@Red Barchetta](#): > > I’m just impressed that you’re incapable of being civil to someone who holds views opposite your own. You’re taking this far more personally than intended, and I’m not quite sure why. In GQ or GD i would be perfectly civil, but we are in the pit baby. 😃 Have you ever heard the phrase about walking a mile in the other guys shoes? I ride a bike for recreation and the health benefits. I have probably increased my life expectancy by 25 years from the benefits. However having assholes coast up behind me then blow a 120 decibel horn as it comes even with my rear tire, throw trash at me, yell at me, hit me with the mirror of their truck, and dump me in the gutter when the cut me off to make a right turn has probably taken back 5 of those years. Oh yeah, beer cans, I forgot the flying beer cans. I don’t know, maybe it is just a personality defect. After all of the above shit, I start to take comments like yours personally. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Barchetta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/da6949/32.png) [@Red\_Barchetta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Barchetta)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2007, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adult-bicyclists-get-off-the-damn-sidewalk/396118/118 "2007-03-17T21:06:51Z")
[QUOTE=Rick] In GQ or GD i would be perfectly civil, but we are in the pit baby. 😃 Have you ever heard the phrase about walking a mile in the other guys shoes? [/QUOTE] There’s no need to patronize me. It sounds as if you’re projecting your hate of those who have done the aforementioned offensive activities on to me. I try my hardest to be respectful of bicyclists; I slow down considerably and give ample room when passing, but that doesn’t nullify my opinions mentioned prior. So excuse me if I take offense when you lump me into the same group that intentionally harm/annoy you while on the street. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2007, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adult-bicyclists-get-off-the-damn-sidewalk/396118/119 "2007-03-17T21:14:26Z")
[QUOTE=Red Barchetta] So excuse me if I take offense when you lump me into the same group that intentionally harm/annoy you while on the street. [/QUOTE] And excuse _me_ for taking offense when you lump law-abiding cyclists with those who break the law, and stating that we should all be banned from riding on the road. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Barchetta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/da6949/32.png) [@Red\_Barchetta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Barchetta)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2007, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adult-bicyclists-get-off-the-damn-sidewalk/396118/120 "2007-03-17T21:18:00Z")
[QUOTE=scr4] And excuse _me_ for taking offense when you lump law-abiding cyclists with those who break the law, and stating that we should all be banned from riding on the road. [/QUOTE] Many city roads, as I later clarified, in my neck of the woods at that. If severely ramped up enforcement by the police can curtail that neglect of the law, I’d be down with that too, but I question its effectiveness given the rampant lack of respect for the law I witness from many bikers, again, in my area. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adult-bicyclists-get-off-the-damn-sidewalk/396118.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/adult-bicyclists-get-off-the-damn-sidewalk/396118.md?page=7)