# Advanced dinosaur civilization **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 9, 2022, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advanced-dinosaur-civilization/965923 "2022-06-09T16:22:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2022, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advanced-dinosaur-civilization/965923/81 "2022-06-10T03:45:26Z")
It all depends on your definition of civilization. Meriam Webster definition 1.B:“the culture characteristic of a particular time or place” Communal migration and nesting, care of the young and a bit of learned behavior. I wouldn’t expect much more for Dino-Culture. That’s more civilized than most popular representations of dinosaurs. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2022, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advanced-dinosaur-civilization/965923/82 "2022-06-10T04:08:06Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > As I said, if your hypothesis is untestable, then you can imagine literally anything you like, but there’s not much informative or explanatory power in that. As a reminder, my question is > [@Pleonast](#): > > How advanced and widespread could a dinosaur civilization have been that’s consistent with our current body of evidence from geology and paleontology? I’m fairly certain that what is consistent with our current body of evidence from geology and paleontology is testable. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2022, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advanced-dinosaur-civilization/965923/83 "2022-06-10T05:15:30Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > You can have a non-technological civilization. One with traditions, history and education. If learning is passed along from generation to generation and it grows on the way that is a civilization also. Sure, Several late Paleolithic “civilizations” existed. Gobekli Tepe may be one of them. But we found the ruins and we found the tools. Flint tools last nigh forever, and so do the fossil bones that show that those animals were butchered and killed with them. One can even call the great Aztec and Mayan Civilizations non-technological. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2022, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advanced-dinosaur-civilization/965923/84 "2022-06-10T07:20:48Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > I’m not sure how much evidence we have that dinosaurs never developed anything like human intelligence. There’s been at least 65 million years to degrade and destroy evidence of a dinosaur civilization. We have all the evidence - there are no tools preserved alongside or contemporaneous with dinosaurs. If we find dinosaur fossils, we should find dinosaur tools. Also, no dinosaur we’ve found has looked like it had human intelligence, anatomically. > [@Pleonast](#): > > Or what about a dinosaur civilization that had fire and agriculture, but was limited to one continent (perhaps Antarctica) and stone tools? Nope. We’d have found the tools, because we [found](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snow_Hill_Island_Formation) the dinosaurs. And not Antarctica, at the time the dinsosaurs went extinct, it [wasn’t](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gondwana#Australia%E2%80%93Antarctica_separation) [that isolated](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinosaur_Cove). > [@Pleonast](#): > > I want to know what types of dinosaur civilizations cannot be excluded by our scientific knowledge. All of them can be excluded. The only dinosaur civilization that can’t be excluded is one where space aliens picked up some non-intelligent dinosaurs in 66 Ma BCE and evolved them elsewhere. > [@What\_Exit](#): > > They could have had pre-industrial technology on par with lets say the Romans multiple times without leaving a trace. No. Stone tools and the signs of stone tool manufacture don’t disappear that easily. > [@What\_Exit](#): > > Very little record would survive of our current technology. If the fossils survive, the stone tools would survive - be _even more likely_ to have survived, in fact. > [@Voyager](#): > > If they had gotten to the homo erectus level, with a similar population size, odds are we’d never find anything. No, [we would](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acheulean) ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2022, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advanced-dinosaur-civilization/965923/85 "2022-06-10T07:45:48Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > You are addressing civilization. That doesn’t require technology. Yes, it does. At a minimum, civilization _requires_ urbanization. It’s definitional. Anything else is a _culture_, not a _civilization_. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2022, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advanced-dinosaur-civilization/965923/86 "2022-06-10T07:46:46Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > Maybe it’s good enough now that we can rule out any “pop up” sapient dinosaur species. But maybe it’s not; I don’t know, so I’m asking. It _is_ good enough. There, you’ve been answered. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2022, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advanced-dinosaur-civilization/965923/87 "2022-06-10T07:55:58Z")
> [@EastUmpqua](#): > > For example, if a civilization exploited geo-thermal energy How? How, _exactly_, do you “exploit geothermal energy” _without pipes and generators_? This is _not_ a civilization: [![](https://skyticket.com/guide/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/shutterstock_516042154-680x454.jpg) ](https://skyticket.com/guide/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/shutterstock_516042154-680x454.jpg) > [@EastUmpqua](#): > > or biological technology You know [we can tell](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palynology) what was growing in a place millions of years ago, right? “Biological technology” would show in the paleoecology. Which is a thing people actively study. > [@What\_Exit](#): > > They’re could be wind power without metals. How do they chop down the timber to make their wooden windmills? > [@](#): > > Geothermal can be used for some applications with ceramics. Ceramics are just about as persistent in the archaeological record as stone tools. > [@DrDeth](#): > > One can even call the great Aztec and Mayan Civilizations non-technological. Not using any sensible contextual definition of “technological” (which rules out the " _relating to, or involving technology, especially moderns scientific technology._" [definition](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/technological)) They had metal casting, for Pete’s sake. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2022, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advanced-dinosaur-civilization/965923/88 "2022-06-10T10:53:58Z")
[Kuzegesagt recently did a video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRvv0QdruMQ) on this topic, interesting, though a bit light on detail. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2022, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advanced-dinosaur-civilization/965923/89 "2022-06-10T11:48:52Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > How advanced and widespread could a dinosaur civilization have been that’s consistent with our current body of evidence from geology and paleontology? What body of evidence exists for dinosaur civilization? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2022, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advanced-dinosaur-civilization/965923/90 "2022-06-10T12:15:29Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > One can even call the great Aztec and Mayan Civilizations non-technological. What? No, one could definitely NOT do that. These were very complex societies with LOTS of technologies. ---
**Author:** ![snowthx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowthx/32/10660_2.png) [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2022, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advanced-dinosaur-civilization/965923/91 "2022-06-10T13:05:57Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > Only about 11,000 dinosaur fossils [have ever been discovered](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/dinosaur-discoveries-are-booming/#:~:text=In%20the%20two%20centuries%20since,in%20North%20America%20and%20Europe.) I think this is an important point. We are only finding the fossils on or near the surface - pretty much the easy ones, like our search for minerals. Are remnants of dino civilization buried deeper and we have not encountered them yet? Or maybe evidence of a primitive, isolated dino culture that existed briefly then ended for some reason is buried under the Himalayas, or has been subducted by plate tectonics, or is deep undersea. Possible? Yes. Plausible? Maybe. Likely? No. Fairly, though, the fossil record for dinosaurs is limited only to the easy places to look. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2022, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advanced-dinosaur-civilization/965923/92 "2022-06-10T13:16:49Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > We have all the evidence - there are no tools preserved alongside or contemporaneous with dinosaurs. If we find dinosaur fossils, we should find dinosaur tools. This thread is about the places and times we haven’t looked. @Dr.Strangelove linked to a Scientific American article that shows where we haven’t looked. Given that sapience evolved at least once in about 8 million years and 3 million square miles, we need that kind of resolution to positively exclude other sapience evolution. If you have better estimates for the time or space needed, go for it. > [@Crane](#): > > What body of evidence exists for dinosaur civilization? None, but that is off topic. > [@Pleonast](#): > > To be clear, I’m not looking for evidence that there was a dinosaur civilization, I want to know what types of dinosaur civilizations cannot be excluded by our scientific knowledge. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2022, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advanced-dinosaur-civilization/965923/93 "2022-06-10T13:27:21Z")
Dinosaurs (and their degree of civilization) were probably somewhere between the two extremes pictured here under “The Age of Dinosaurs” [https://www.besse.at/sms/evolutn.html](https://www.besse.at/sms/evolutn.html) > [@](#): > > The dinosaurs have traditionally been pictured as slow, stupid and lethargic beasts (above). Recent thinking, however, suggests that they may in fact have been highly intelligent, active and well-adapted to their environment (below). ---
**Author:** ![filmstar-en](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/50afbb/32.png) [@filmstar-en](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmstar-en)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2022, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advanced-dinosaur-civilization/965923/94 "2022-06-10T13:29:04Z")
‘Civilization’ is another problem word that requires definition. Many species live in large groups. Some show high levels of organisation in nests, such as a social insects. Others live in great colonies, such as a sea birds. Or herds on the grasslands. But we do not refer to these groups as civilisations. They are simply adaptions to an environment to exploit a local food source and provide some protection from predators or they group together to procreate. Tool use, farming, some kind of language to pass on information. We can see some examples of this in some species. But it is very limited, even amongst primates. On the other hand humans have been civilised ever since they settled as farmers. But evidence of a civilisation is a rarity. The constant churn of the earth’s dynamic surface swallows many secrets. We know only those that have left behind some durable evidence. It helps if they build out of stone rather than wood or mud, have some kind of writing and use metals and live in places not inundated by water or ice or swallowed by desert sands or jungle. The fossil record is very selective. Flash flood victims and denizens of watery places dominate and we tend to see only an impression of their physical remains if they have hard parts like bones. For much of the earths existence it has favoured spineless blobs floating around seas. Who knows what they might have been able to evolve into, could clever jellyfish have become civilised and left no trace? Dinosaurs are merely the bagatelles of the prehistoric world, much loved by Hollywood. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2022, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advanced-dinosaur-civilization/965923/95 "2022-06-10T13:29:40Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > This thread is about the places and times we haven’t looked. There’s not really any such place. We’ve looked in Antarctica, we’ve looked in Greenland, and all parts in between. If there were signs of tool-using intelligent dinosaurs equivalent to even _H. ergaster_, we’d have found them. > [@snowthx](#): > > Or maybe evidence of a primitive, isolated dino culture that existed briefly then ended for some reason is buried under the Himalayas, or has been subducted by plate tectonics, or is deep undersea. Possible? Yes. No. See [this earlier thread](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-likely-is-it-that-there-are-undiscovered-long-lost-ancient-buildings-in-the-world/965473/43) on ancient civilizations for a discussion of why subduction isn’t the gotcha laymen seem to think. And do you think the geology of the Himalayas isn’t well-studied? ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2022, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advanced-dinosaur-civilization/965923/96 "2022-06-10T13:41:44Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > > [@Pleonast](#): > > > > This thread is about the places and times we haven’t looked. > > There’s not really any such place. And the times? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2022, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advanced-dinosaur-civilization/965923/97 "2022-06-10T13:45:49Z")
Or times. Although if you’re advocating a _Jurassic_ dino civilization that devolved to the somehow otherwise more sophisticated later dinosaurs, that’s even more of a stretch. Why would it be the physiologically less-advanced dinos that develop this civilization? If we are to look for this dino civ, it only makes sense that it would be in the Late Cretaceous. Which happens to be the most actively studied time, for various reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2022, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advanced-dinosaur-civilization/965923/98 "2022-06-10T13:51:29Z")
> [@filmstar-en](#): > > ‘Civilization’ is another problem word that requires definition. > > Many species live in large groups. Some show high levels of organisation in nests, such as a social insects. Others live in great colonies, such as a sea birds. Or herds on the grasslands. But we do not refer to these groups as civilisations. They are simply adaptions to an environment to exploit a local food source and provide some protection from predators or they group together to procreate. This is a good point. I think the difference between a civilization and another localized resource exploitation is that the civilization actively manages the local resource. So, a human group who regularly returns to a site that happens to have cereals growing is not a civilization. But a human group, who modifies that site so that cereals become more abundant, is. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2022, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advanced-dinosaur-civilization/965923/99 "2022-06-10T13:55:14Z")
Hmm. Lots of animals do that. I joke to my children that our squirrels are well-provisioned because their ancestors had the forethought to bury acorns. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2022, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advanced-dinosaur-civilization/965923/100 "2022-06-10T14:01:14Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Although if you’re advocating a _Jurassic_ dino civilization that devolved to the somehow otherwise more sophisticated later dinosaurs, that’s even more of a stretch. Why would it be the physiologically less-advanced dinos that develop this civilization? I’ve lost what you’re talking about because this has nothing to do with what I’m talking about. I’m not advocating any sort dinosaur civilization. I’m trying to exclude possible dinosaur civilizations and want more specific information to do so. And I’m not sure what “devolve” or “physiologically less-advanced” means in scientific terms. There’s temporally earlier and later species; there’s grouping of species into clades. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advanced-dinosaur-civilization/965923.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advanced-dinosaur-civilization/965923.md?page=6)