# Advanced Latin translation help **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 3, 2006, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advanced-latin-translation-help/355233 "2006-05-03T14:27:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![CJJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecc23a/32.png) [@CJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CJJ)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2006, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advanced-latin-translation-help/355233/1 "2006-05-03T14:27:40Z")
I’ve been impressed with some of the latin scholars on this board, so I thought I’d throw out a problem I’ve been working on. I have an old letter written in Latin which includes the following sentence: > [@](#): > > Spero te in hoc licet arduo munere explenda tanta prudentia, vigilantia ac charitate, omnia esse peracturum, _ut huic Collegio Urbano laudi duci possit, tum in scientiis tum in pietate tibi institutionem dedisse._ The opening clause is easy: “I hope that you will execute all duties (lit. “all things to be completed”) in this admittedly difficult office with (equally) great prudence, vigilance, and charity,” (_tanta_ is balanced by an earlier phrase _tanto honore_; in essence the writer is hoping the man’s qualities are as great as the honor he’s receiving). However, the part in italics mystifies me. The writing is rather faded, but I’m pretty sure I copied the letters correctly. Any advice? ---
**Author:** ![yBeayf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e274bd/32.png) [@yBeayf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yBeayf)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2006, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advanced-latin-translation-help/355233/2 "2006-05-03T15:20:36Z")
I’ll be interested to see what a proper translation of it is. I can kinda get the gist of what’s being said – “I hope you will execute all duties blah blah, so that to this College may praise and something, not only in knowledge but also in piety, to you this institution something.” It’s stating the hoped-for result of this guy’s leadership or something. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2006, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advanced-latin-translation-help/355233/3 "2006-05-03T16:31:37Z")
Could it be “_cum_ in scientiis”? Might it be something like “so that it may be considered praiseworthy in this Urbanus College [that] the institution has dedicated [itself] not only in knowledge but in loyalty to you”? More literally, “that it is able to be considered in praise to this Urbanus College, the institution to have given not only in sciences but in loyalty to you”. I’m still not quite happy about that “dedisse”, though. ---
**Author:** ![CJJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecc23a/32.png) [@CJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CJJ)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2006, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advanced-latin-translation-help/355233/4 "2006-05-03T17:30:11Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Could it be “_cum_ in scientiis”? When i first transliterated the sentence to my notebook, I wrote the expected cum…tum. On rechecking (since I couldn’t figurte out the grammar of this sentence0, it was indeed tum…tum. Odd, but there it is. > [@Kimstu](#): > > Might it be something like “so that it may be considered praiseworthy in this Urbanus College [that] the institution has dedicated [itself] not only in knowledge but in loyalty to you”? > > More literally, “that it is able to be considered in praise to this Urbanus College, the institution to have given not only in sciences but in loyalty to you”. > > I’m still not quite happy about that “dedisse”, though. That’s about the best I could do with it, the idea being that the college (or the _duci_) can take pride that the institution has given to you in both wisdom and piety (Urbanus College is a seminary, and the letter is written by a member of a religious order, so I’ll take that final liberty with _pietas_). I can’t vouch for the original writer’s mastery of Latin, and am glad more than a few fellow Latinates find this sentence as puzzling as I did. Thx:-) ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2006, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advanced-latin-translation-help/355233/5 "2006-05-03T19:38:21Z")
Well, **Kimstu** ’s translation seems mostly right to me. Here’s what I would have said: “That it can be considered [lit:led] in praise to [or for] this Urban College that the institution has given you both knowledge and piety [lit: given with respect to, or something like that].” ‘institutem dedisse’ is indirect speech. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2006, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advanced-latin-translation-help/355233/6 "2006-05-03T20:17:32Z")
Hmm. I took “in pietate tibi” to mean “in loyalty to you”, rather than interpreting _pietas_ more literally as “piety”. But maybe your interpretation works better. ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2006, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advanced-latin-translation-help/355233/7 "2006-05-03T20:33:42Z")
Yeah, I see either interpretation. I chose my way because of the parallelism - tibi seemed to go with both. What was the problem with dedisse, by the way? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2006, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advanced-latin-translation-help/355233/8 "2006-05-03T20:40:21Z")
I thought “dedisse” should have “scientias” and “pietatem” as direct objects instead of those odd prepositional phrases with “in”, if its indirect object was “tibi”. But I am not an expert Latinist by any stretch of the imagination, and I willingly defer to the better informed. ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2006, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advanced-latin-translation-help/355233/9 "2006-05-03T21:05:28Z")
That would certainly be a much more straightforward way of saying it! Do, dare can be intransitive, and in + abl. can also be used “in other relations, where a person or thing is thought of as in a certain condition, situation, or relation” (Lewis & Short). I figured he was just trying to be a fancy-pants. ---
**Author:** ![CJJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecc23a/32.png) [@CJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CJJ)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2006, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advanced-latin-translation-help/355233/10 "2006-05-03T21:54:09Z")
> [@Helen's Eidolon](#): > > That would certainly be a much more straightforward way of saying it! Do, dare can be intransitive, and in + abl. can also be used “in other relations, where a person or thing is thought of as in a certain condition, situation, or relation” (Lewis & Short). > > I figured he was just trying to be a fancy-pants. To fill in some of the context, the letter dates from 1881 and is a family heirloom I was asked to translate. It appears to be a letter from a bishop in the Congregation for the Propagation of the Faith in Rome to a bishop in the Iowa diocese of Davenport. It is an informal notice (the bishops seem to know each other) that the diocese of Dubuque was to be split and that the Iowa bishop was to be installed as head of the new Diocese of Davenport. Again, the letter was sent from Rome, and I won’t vouch for the Latin (it is indeed “fancy pants” in a number of other areas). The key for me, as **Helen’s Eidolon** noted, is taking the infinitive _duci_ to mean “be considered” after _possit_; while I recognized the indirect speech in _institutionem dedisse_, I found it hard to justify without this crucial point. Thx again all:) ---
**Author:** ![LittleMissLoLo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/db5fbb/32.png) [@LittleMissLoLo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LittleMissLoLo)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2012, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advanced-latin-translation-help/355233/11 "2012-12-08T11:56:56Z")
Sorry i just made an account and cant figure out how to create my own thread 😕 so i poster on this one. I have to translate Arthur Slays a Giant for class and i have the whole story done but i cant figure out this one sentence. Will all of you latin scholars out there help me?? Here is the sentence: Arturus itaque revocata virtute ocius elabitur et celeriter nunc hinc nunc illinc nefandum gladio diverberat nec requievit donec letali vulnere illato totum mucronem capiti impressit, qua cerebrum testa protegebatur. ---
**Author:** ![Hail\_Ants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/dc4da7/32.png) [@Hail\_Ants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hail_Ants)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2012, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advanced-latin-translation-help/355233/12 "2012-12-08T12:24:55Z")
It says, \*“Roman go home!” “No it doesn’t…”\* 😃 ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2012, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advanced-latin-translation-help/355233/13 "2012-12-08T12:52:41Z")
People here are pretty sensitive about actually doing homework for students, but if you post your thinking, and where you are getting tripped up, I am sure you will get guidance. ---
**Author:** ![LittleMissLoLo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/db5fbb/32.png) [@LittleMissLoLo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LittleMissLoLo)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2012, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advanced-latin-translation-help/355233/14 "2012-12-08T13:09:26Z")
okay thanks! sorry thats not what i ment for it to seem like at all. i did everything else but that one sentence, but i can see how it would look. my bad. well so far i think i have the first part as “Arthur then having been revoked by bravery quickly slipped out and…” thats where i get stuck. i can pair words together like fatal wound and monstrous sword. but i cant figure out the word order for the second half after the “et” ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2012, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advanced-latin-translation-help/355233/15 "2012-12-08T15:53:48Z")
_revocata_ isn’t “revoked” in this context, but “called back.” As for the rest of the sentence, have you tried breaking out the clauses around the finite verbs? I might put a semicolon before _donec_, myself. As for the zombie thread, _cum. . . tum_ changes in medieval Latin, and since this looks like Church Latin I suspect that is the correct reading. ---
**Author:** ![LittleMissLoLo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/db5fbb/32.png) [@LittleMissLoLo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LittleMissLoLo)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2012, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advanced-latin-translation-help/355233/16 "2012-12-08T16:08:46Z")
yes it is medieval latin! ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2012, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advanced-latin-translation-help/355233/17 "2012-12-08T16:26:21Z")
**LittleMissLoLo** , my comment about Medieval Latin was for **CJJ** \*'s question from 6 years ago. I know yours is also medieval Latin because I recognize it: Galfridus Monumetensis, or, _anglice_, Geoffrey of Monmouth. ---
**Author:** ![LittleMissLoLo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/db5fbb/32.png) [@LittleMissLoLo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LittleMissLoLo)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2012, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advanced-latin-translation-help/355233/18 "2012-12-08T16:47:07Z")
This is what i have so far. the wording is still a little messy at some parts, but is most of it correct? Arthur then called back by bravery quickly slipped out and swiftly he was striking the monstrous beast now here now there, he did not rest until he buried the whole sword point to the head having inflicted a fatal wound, which the skull was protected. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2012, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advanced-latin-translation-help/355233/19 "2012-12-09T16:39:06Z")
You are translating it as though revocata modified Arturus. This cannot be right. Find the right verb to construe with Arturus and the rest of the syntax should fall into place.