# Advancing through the ranks by killing your superior **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 28, 2018, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advancing-through-the-ranks-by-killing-your-superior/807624 "2018-01-28T00:57:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2018, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advancing-through-the-ranks-by-killing-your-superior/807624/21 "2018-01-28T10:12:59Z")
Official, not gonna happen. Extraofficial, the most dangerous job in the [Visigothic Kingdom](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visigothic_Kingdom) was King, followed closely by “Royal advisor”, “Royal relative” and “person who just happened to be in the street when the King walked by”. It’s like GoT with worse fashion sense. ---
**Author:** ![Ignotus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ecc23a/32.png) [@Ignotus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ignotus)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2018, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advancing-through-the-ranks-by-killing-your-superior/807624/22 "2018-01-28T12:15:40Z")
Not enough smoking hot women in chainmail underwear? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2018, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advancing-through-the-ranks-by-killing-your-superior/807624/23 "2018-01-28T12:17:36Z")
> [@psychonaut](#): > > overthrowing the odd weak or tyrannical leader this way may be tolerated or even lauded, it’s never the norm. I originally parsed this as “overthrowing the odd, weak, or tyrannical leader” which is not far from the truth either. ---
**Author:** ![Banksiaman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banksiaman/32/3334_2.png) [@Banksiaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banksiaman)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2018, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advancing-through-the-ranks-by-killing-your-superior/807624/24 "2018-01-28T12:23:28Z")
> [@psychonaut](#): > > The Klingons? > > Seriously, you are not going to find any example of this outside of science fiction and fantasy. A culture where the “official” way of advancing socially is to kill your superior would destroy itself in short order. Assassinations and coups can probably be found in all human cultures, and while overthrowing the odd weak or tyrannical leader this way may be tolerated or even lauded, it’s never the norm. WWE? Until the pretender declares themselves all of the power remains with the title-holder. The more they fear an attmpt on them the less likely that closely related pretenders, charismatic chancers, over-successful generals and others will be able to put themselves forward before they get neutralised. As a result the figures for attempts would be greatly suppressed by a careful and paranoid leader. And a big cheerio to Joseph Stalin, Kim Jong Un and Caligula. We’re thinking of you. ---
**Author:** ![chrisk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@chrisk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chrisk)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2018, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advancing-through-the-ranks-by-killing-your-superior/807624/25 "2018-01-28T13:14:12Z")
> [@Banksiaman](#): > > WWE? > > Until the pretender declares themselves all of the power remains with the title-holder. The more they fear an attmpt on them the less likely that closely related pretenders, charismatic chancers, over-successful generals and others will be able to put themselves forward before they get neutralised. As a result the figures for attempts would be greatly suppressed by a careful and paranoid leader. > > And a big cheerio to Joseph Stalin, Kim Jong Un and Caligula. We’re thinking of you. Yeah, I think that the greatest negative effect would be more indirect. The culture of paranoia would make it harder to get things done in general, and specifically lead to a number of of competent and popular underlings getting assassinated. Which was specifically explored in the Asimov Foundation books… where the Empire didn’t actually sanction taking the throne by killing the old Emperor, but coups had become so common that Trantor culture seemed to tolerate them… Until one of the last guys decided that he wanted loot Trantor and essentially left it in ruins. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2018, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advancing-through-the-ranks-by-killing-your-superior/807624/26 "2018-01-28T14:25:56Z")
> [@psychonaut](#): > > The Klingons? > > Seriously, you are not going to find any example of this outside of science fiction and fantasy. And even in that imaginary instance, it was established that it should happen “honorably” in both pretext and manner. As mentioned, simple ascent by removal doesn’t work IRL until you actually are yourself in a position to take over and make it stick. You kill your lieutenant to take over from him, your commander will order loyal troops to kill YOU as you are an obviously bigger threat. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2018, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advancing-through-the-ranks-by-killing-your-superior/807624/27 "2018-01-28T15:24:28Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > As mentioned, simple ascent by removal doesn’t work IRL until you actually are yourself in a position to take over and make it stick. You kill your lieutenant to take over from him, your commander will order loyal troops to kill YOU as you are an obviously bigger threat. Exactly. Killing the top guy and taking over can work, but openly killing anyone else to take their place would probably end up with the top guy eliminating you as a threat. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2018, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advancing-through-the-ranks-by-killing-your-superior/807624/28 "2018-01-28T19:43:47Z")
> [@psychonaut](#): > > The Klingons? Boskone. (No, not the SF convention in Boston, although for all I know, it may apply there too.) ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2018, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advancing-through-the-ranks-by-killing-your-superior/807624/29 "2018-01-28T20:43:05Z")
For all time and all history, killing the leader is one of the easiest ways to open that position up for someone else to take it. No matter the type of government and rules involved, one thing is for certain, that person is no longer the leader. Who exactly succeeds, that’s a different story. I am sure there have been many situations where the person who is in line to succeed the current ruler sped things up to get in power faster. ---
**Author:** ![Blakeyrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@Blakeyrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blakeyrat)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2018, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advancing-through-the-ranks-by-killing-your-superior/807624/30 "2018-01-30T00:47:37Z")
> [@psychonaut](#): > > The Klingons? > > Seriously, you are not going to find any example of this outside of science fiction and fantasy. A culture where the “official” way of advancing socially is to kill your superior would destroy itself in short order. Assassinations and coups can probably be found in all human cultures, and while overthrowing the odd weak or tyrannical leader this way may be tolerated or even lauded, it’s never the norm. Even in Star Trek, at least the Next Generation shows I grew up on, the Klingons _talked_ about this a thousand times more than it ever occurred. Since every species “knew” how ruthless the Klingons were, it was probably more about intimidation than running an effective and efficient military. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2018, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advancing-through-the-ranks-by-killing-your-superior/807624/31 "2018-01-30T01:15:08Z")
> [@dtilque](#): > > Boskone. Not even then, really. Underlings were quick to pounce when the higher-up got DeLametered by Kinnison, but they didn’t routinely off their leaders. Gharlane would **not** be pleased. ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2018, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advancing-through-the-ranks-by-killing-your-superior/807624/32 "2018-01-30T01:18:48Z")
Not necessarily murder but in the workplace I have seen this countless times where subordinates will attempt to sabotage the boss and get him fired. In most cases it backfires. It has happened to me several times, unsuccessfully. I did get fired one time by a boss who thought I was after his job, I could have easily knocked him out and he knew he was vulnerable. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2018, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advancing-through-the-ranks-by-killing-your-superior/807624/33 "2018-01-30T01:35:44Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Not even then, really. Underlings were quick to pounce when the higher-up got DeLametered by Kinnison, but they didn’t routinely off their leaders. Gharlane would **not** be pleased. Yes, I know. But that seemed to be the common view of it from their enemies. But we see from when Kinnison infiltrates Thrale that it’s just like everyone says above. An underling can’t just knock off his boss at random, or the overboss will eliminate the underling. The underling has to prove to the overboss that he’s more competent than his boss. ---
**Author:** ![ArtBeforeScience](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/73ab20/32.png) [@ArtBeforeScience](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ArtBeforeScience)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2018, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advancing-through-the-ranks-by-killing-your-superior/807624/34 "2018-01-30T03:05:31Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > I need to clarify the question. I’m talking about cultures where that’s the _officially, culturally accepted_ method of succession. Another poster mentioned the Ottomans. Well, in Lord Kinross’ book on The Ottoman Centuries he described what happened AFTER someone ascended the throne. First move: strangling all his brother, potential competition. I think in terms of the question, it may be more likely for people to eliminate rivals rather than superiors. These could be within your own organization or, if you’re heading a crime family, you try to nail the other crime lords and take over their turf, maybe get their people to work for you instead. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2018, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advancing-through-the-ranks-by-killing-your-superior/807624/35 "2018-01-30T06:31:42Z")
The Yanomami. The Amazonian Yanomami tribe are the badasses of primitive culture. They have no concept of fate, so if somebody falls ill they figure it must be someone else’s fault. This makes their society extremely violent: their tribal neighbors are terrified of them, they think they’re crazy. At least that’s what Redmond O’Hanlon’s companion told him when he was trying to bumrush him out of the area after O’Hanlon stared at the Chief’s wife a little too long while under the influence of native hallucinogens. [Book](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/108845.In_Trouble_Again). Anyway, how does one become a Yanomani _tuxawa_ or headman? Adjoining villages will often badmouth each other, which leads to [good natured fights](https://www.artofmanliness.com/2013/06/10/the-yanomamo-and-the-origins-of-male-honor/) involving hard slaps to the chest, hair pulling, and wrestling in the dirt. If the insult is more serious, hard punches to the pectoral punches are traded. If one person delivers 3 blows, the other can deliver 3 blows. You’re suppose to be stoic. It’s very manly. If slander is still more serious or if theft or wife abduction is involved, the duel uses clubs. Same rules. So how does one become leader of these psychos? Leaders are village based: nobody rules the entire Yanomami. Gains in political power are decided by showing skill in… “[settling disputes both within the village and with neighbouring communities](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yanomami).” Sort of disappointing really. Apologies to the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2018, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advancing-through-the-ranks-by-killing-your-superior/807624/36 "2018-01-30T06:40:33Z")
Small warrior: Let’s fight it out. Medium warrior: Let’s trade punches in a formal duel. Large warrior: Let’s trade club hits in a formal duel. Galactic warrior: Let’s you and him fight. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2018, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advancing-through-the-ranks-by-killing-your-superior/807624/37 "2018-01-30T09:15:02Z")
I read this is why arab countries have such terrible military leaders because often the countries leader (ex. Gaddafi) became dictator after overthrowing the previous leader. So they therefore dont want any smart general getting the support of the troops and taking them out. So hence, the dictator puts in relatives and patsies into military leadership roles. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2018, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advancing-through-the-ranks-by-killing-your-superior/807624/38 "2018-01-30T18:45:04Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Right now it seems to me such a system would never be sustainable, but I’ve been surprised before. Let me know what you decide because my boss’ job pays considerably more than mine. ---
**Author:** ![apLundell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aplundell/32/14656_2.png) [@apLundell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/apLundell)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2018, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advancing-through-the-ranks-by-killing-your-superior/807624/39 "2018-01-30T21:37:07Z")
Interesting that the real-life examples are poisoners, backstabbers and fraggers, while the fictional examples (ie: Klingons) involve formalized dueling. Has there ever existed a culture where it was reasonably common for an underling (but perhaps not \*any \*underling) to challenge their immediate superior to a duel and the superior was compelled to accept? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2018, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advancing-through-the-ranks-by-killing-your-superior/807624/40 "2018-01-30T22:11:17Z")
One alleged example - the “Rex Nemorensis”: > **[Rex Nemorensis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rex_Nemorensis)** > > The rex Nemorensis (Latin, "king of Nemi") was a priest of the goddess Diana at Aricia in Italy, by the shores of Lake Nemi, where she was known as Diana Nemorensis. > The priest was king of the sacred grove by the lake. No one was to break off any branch of a certain sacred oak, except that if a runaway slave did so, he could engage the Rex Nemorensis in mortal combat. If the slave prevailed, he became the next king for as long as he could, in turn, defeat challengers. > The priesthood played a ... > [@](#): > > The Greek geographer Strabo also mentions the institution: “and in fact a barbaric, and Scythian, element predominates in the sacred usages, for the people set up as priest merely a run-away slave who has slain with his own hand the man previously consecrated to that office; accordingly the priest is always armed with a sword, looking around for the attacks, and ready to defend himself.”[ > > … > > Surviving lore concerning the rex Nemorensis indicates that this priest or king held a very uneasy position. Macaulay’s quatrain on the institution of the rex Nemorensis states: > > Those trees in whose dim shadow > The ghastly priest doth reign > The priest who slew the slayer, > And shall himself be slain. > > This is, in a nutshell, the surviving legend of the rex Nemorensis: the priesthood of Diana at Nemi was held by a person who obtained that honour by slaying the prior incumbent in a trial by combat, and who could remain at the post only so long as he successfully defended his position against all challengers. However, a successful candidate had first to test his mettle by plucking a golden bough from one of the trees in the sacred grove. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advancing-through-the-ranks-by-killing-your-superior/807624.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advancing-through-the-ranks-by-killing-your-superior/807624.md?page=3)