# Advice columnist: Trump raped me in a fitting room **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 25, 2019, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-columnist-trump-raped-me-in-a-fitting-room/836042 "2019-06-25T16:34:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-columnist-trump-raped-me-in-a-fitting-room/836042/182 "2019-06-28T20:54:47Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Our justice system has failed women again and again. This is why they so often seek other paths for justice, or even just to get something off their chest. By accusing a women of lying, when there’s not a shred of evidence she is doing so, you are making this even harder for women in the future. “ Other paths for justice”. Sounds like a dog whistle for mob rule, vigilantism, or trial by media. I’m not a fan. People are free to do what they like and discuss what they like with whom they like. Personally, if I am being asked, I would say that the justice system is the best place to accuse someone of a crime. If they choose to discuss it publically and make it a media thing than I think it is ok for me to share my opinion. > [@](#): > > But I’ll go back to your first paragraph - under what circumstances is it wrong for a woman to honestly speak out about a time she was assaulted or raped? Who decides if it’s honest? You and I seem to disagree. > [@](#): > > If Carroll is indeed being honest, do you think she’s done wrong by speaking out? If so, then it would seem her honesty is irrelevant to you - she should have just stayed shut up no matter what. Since you are asking me, I think it’s likely a mistake. If she is being honest I won’t say she is doing, but I think she is making a mistake if she is seeking justice. I think a better choice would be to file charges. If she is being honest, and her goal is not justice, but something else, like sell books, hurt Trump’s chances for election, etc. than I do think she is doing wrong, ethically. I don’t think that’s likely, though. ---
**Author:** ![Les\_Wizerables](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c89c15/32.png) [@Les\_Wizerables](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Les_Wizerables)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-columnist-trump-raped-me-in-a-fitting-room/836042/183 "2019-06-28T21:06:02Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > If you feel it’s a fun and rewarding topic, be my guest. I just prefer not to participate. Except you did participate. You chose to relay the account of Ms. Carroll in the way you did. I believe you did so in a way that misrepresented her account in an effort to discredit her (whether on your own or because that’s how the story had wrongly been conveyed to you). And then you criticized those who do things to discourage sexual assault victims from coming forward. Whether you are declining to defend your apparently misleading account of the assault and Ms. Carroll’s actions since then out of preference or inability scarcely matters. What matters is that you gave a still-unsupported account of a sexual assault and aftermath that seems to be at odds with the accuser’s account and that makes the accuser look bad, and then lamented the fact that sexual assault victims are sometimes unwilling to come forward and wondered why that is the case. ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-columnist-trump-raped-me-in-a-fitting-room/836042/184 "2019-06-28T21:12:38Z")
Carroll’s account definitely has the ring of truth. Many rape victims feel conflicted because they think they should have done more to stop the assault, and feel foolish and stupid for “letting” it progress to the point it did. She knows that trying on lingerie for a creeper was not a good decision, and she’s probably beat herself up endlessly for it, and blamed herself on some level for her being in the position she was in, even while knowing that she was IN NO WAY at fault for the assault. That would make her very unlikely to want to report it, knowing that others would judge her the same way she likely felt herself. I can totally get that. I know MANY women who have’t reported assaults for this very reason. If she were to have made up an attack, I am POSITIVE she would have made up a tighter story that didn’t put herself in this position of being second-guessed. Why would she have made up a story that people could pick holes in and accuse her of bringing it on herself? She could have just as easily come up with a story that had her completely “blameless” in the eyes of skeptics. That, coupled with her jeopardizing her livelihood at the time had she reported it, and having reported it to 2 friends at the time it occurred, is pretty convincing to me. Sure, it’s not proof, but it’s highly persuasive. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-columnist-trump-raped-me-in-a-fitting-room/836042/185 "2019-06-28T21:15:36Z")
> [@spifflog](#): > > So when I see a successful, tough, professional journalist with some means, support, and a voice say that she just couldn’t cope or deal with it for 20 years and I look back at some young kids who found a way I do it and I shake my head. And yes, I wonder if, possibly it didn’t really happen. So would you have believed her if she’d come out with the same story 20 years ago? Or would you be seizing on something else to justify doubt? Be honest. And care to explain your rationale for asking this? > [@](#): > > And why has this woman been assaulted by so many men? Maybe because she’s a woman whose had the misfortune of encountering more than one jerk in her life? I’m mean, what could you possibly be hinting at? ---
**Author:** ![LAZombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b38774/32.png) [@LAZombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LAZombie)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-columnist-trump-raped-me-in-a-fitting-room/836042/186 "2019-06-28T21:37:43Z")
“Birnbach said she remembers Carroll “laughing” as she told the story. She said repeatedly that Trump pulled down her tights. Birnbach said at first she was laughing, too,” > **[E. Jean Carroll told two people about her alleged rape. This is what they...](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/06/27/e-jean-carroll-two-friends-talk-her-alleged-rape-trump/1582453001/)** > > E. Jean Carroll told her friends Lisa Birnbach and Carol Martin about her alleged rape by Trump. Today, the women reveal details about those conversations. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-columnist-trump-raped-me-in-a-fitting-room/836042/187 "2019-06-28T21:41:42Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > “ Other paths for justice”. Sounds like a dog whistle for mob rule, vigilantism, or trial by media. I’m not a fan. > > People are free to do what they like and discuss what they like with whom they like. Personally, if I am being asked, I would say that the justice system is the best place to accuse someone of a crime. > > If they choose to discuss it publically and make it a media thing than I think it is ok for me to share my opinion. I’m not a fan of those things either – considering the general powerlessness of victims of prominent men, I don’t think those are likely. Trump has suffered nothing despite over a dozen credible allegations and his own admissions of assault and violations of consent. Our society still treats victims/accusers like shit, and you’re just piling on. You can share your opinion, but by piling on in the way you are, you’re making it harder for girls and women in the future. > [@](#): > > Who decides if it’s honest? You and I seem to disagree. There’s no way to know with certainty at this time… which means we shouldn’t be denigrating and dismissing the party with significantly less power (i.e. the one who’s not the president). Or accusing her of lying with _absolutely no evidence_. If your daughter had such an experience, and accused a powerful man, would you be happy with strangers calling her a liar with no evidence? ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-columnist-trump-raped-me-in-a-fitting-room/836042/188 "2019-06-28T21:43:24Z")
> [@Les\_Wizerables](#): > > Except you did participate. You chose to relay the account of Ms. Carroll in the way you did. I believe you did so in a way that misrepresented her account in an effort to discredit her (whether on your own or because that’s how the story had wrongly been conveyed to you). And then you criticized those who do things to discourage sexual assault victims from coming forward. > > Whether you are declining to defend your apparently misleading account of the assault and Ms. Carroll’s actions since then out of preference or inability scarcely matters. What matters is that you gave a still-unsupported account of a sexual assault and aftermath that seems to be at odds with the accuser’s account and that makes the accuser look bad, and then lamented the fact that sexual assault victims are sometimes unwilling to come forward and wondered why that is the case. I don’t expect a response from Carroll. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-columnist-trump-raped-me-in-a-fitting-room/836042/189 "2019-06-28T21:54:11Z")
Andy: She’s chosen to make her accusation in the media and publicly rather than through the justice system. Deciding and debating whether or not we think she has told the truth is perfectly proper under these circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-columnist-trump-raped-me-in-a-fitting-room/836042/190 "2019-06-28T22:03:16Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > Andy: > > She’s chosen to make her accusation in the media and publicly rather than through the justice system. Deciding and debating whether or not we think she has told the truth is perfectly proper under these circumstances. You’ve presented no evidence she’s not telling the truth. By making such accusations with absolutely no evidence, you’re making it harder for women in the future. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-columnist-trump-raped-me-in-a-fitting-room/836042/191 "2019-06-28T22:08:45Z")
> [@LAZombie](#): > > “Birnbach said she remembers Carroll “laughing” as she told the story. She said repeatedly that Trump pulled down her tights. Birnbach said at first she was laughing, too,” > > [E. Jean Carroll's two friends talk about her alleged rape by Trump.](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/06/27/e-jean-carroll-two-friends-talk-her-alleged-rape-trump/1582453001/) We can read the link, too, ya’ know. To continue with the story: > [@](#): > > … but as Carroll continued she stopped, realizing what her friend was describing was rape. > “Honestly, you said ‘he put his penis in me,’” Birnbach recalls. “And I said ‘what? He raped you?’” > > Birnbach said she encouraged Carroll to go to the police. She said she would go with her, but Carroll declined. > “It was 15 minutes of my life. It’s over. Don’t ever tell anybody. I just had to tell you,” Birnbach remembers Carroll saying. > Sometime later, between one and three days, Carroll told Martin. She was no longer laughing. > “She was like, 'I can’t believe this happened.” Martin said. Are you quoting a contemporaneous account to suggest that it did not happen, or that Trump did, in fact, screw a woman in a dressing room without her consent, but it simply isn’t serious enough to care about? Because I don’t understand how you can quote this confirmation as anything other than evidence that Trump, did, in fact put his penis in a woman without her consent, as verified by two people who were told at the time. ---
**Author:** ![Poysyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Poysyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Poysyn)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-columnist-trump-raped-me-in-a-fitting-room/836042/192 "2019-06-28T22:12:53Z")
> [@spifflog](#): > > No, I think you’re 100% wrong on this. And frankly my statement is what the “me too” movement is all about in my opinion. > > When I was in junior high school a cousin of mine had a similar experience and the advice that she received was that “only you can make you a victim. Are you going to do something about it? Is this going to define you this way?” She took action, went to the authorities, went though some difficult times and came out the other end better for it. > > This forced me to confront an issue that I had a number of years prior, and I initially didn’t handle it the way my female cousin did. I hid and didn’t confront it. I’m not going to go into details, and I don’t want any sympathy or discussion about it, but I’ll just say it involved a 12 year old boy as a piano student (me) and a priest piano instructor. So I had to ask myself some questions, and assess what my life was going to be. Then I had to confront some issues that no 15 year old male in the 1970s wanted to discuss with his mother, or father, his school friends or the church I’ll tell 'ya. And I went though some difficult times and came out the other end better for it. > > So when I see a successful, tough, professional journalist with some means, support, and a voice say that she just couldn’t cope or deal with it for 20 years and I look back at some young kids who found a way I do it and I shake my head. And yes, I wonder if, possibly it didn’t really happen. The world is tough, and if you want to get through it, well, sometimes hard is f’ing authorized. And if and when that philosophy permeates our culture and pushes the victim mentality out of it, our country will be a better place, and bullies will realize that they have no place to hide. I thought that was what the whole me too movement was all about. People who are abused aren’t going to be victims any more. We’re going to grab the bull by the horns and take some action. Interesting - that IS what the MeToo movement is about. Victims are “madder than hell and they are not going to take it anymore”, so no, they are not always reporting to police, who have (historically) treated these people very, very badly, they are telling their stories how THEY want to - not how other people may wish. They are being loud, and using platforms available to them to be loud. This is grabbing the bull by the horns, do you really not see that at all? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-columnist-trump-raped-me-in-a-fitting-room/836042/193 "2019-06-28T22:17:57Z")
> [@Poysyn](#): > > Interesting - that IS what the MeToo movement is about. Victims are “madder than hell and they are not going to take it anymore”, so no, they are not always reporting to police, who have (historically) treated these people very, very badly, they are telling their stories how THEY want to - not how other people may wish. They are being loud, and using platforms available to them to be loud. > > This is grabbing the bull by the horns, do you really not see that at all? Exactly. The point is victims and survivors can tell their stories however they wish, and we should celebrate that they come forward at all. In whatever way they find comfortable. Maybe in the far future our society will actually be fair, and such folks won’t be treated like dogshit. Until then, we should be bending over backwards to make sure we’re as welcoming as possible for people to honestly tell their stories, in whatever way they see fit. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-columnist-trump-raped-me-in-a-fitting-room/836042/194 "2019-06-28T22:21:21Z")
> [@spifflog](#): > > Wow, you do have an issue with the military. Does it color every issue for you? The military has as bad a history around sexual assaults as the Catholic priesthood has. Damn straight I have issues with both of them. They both are organizations that profess to hold higher standards than the civilian population and both fail to live up to those standards in utterly disgusting ways. > [@spifflog](#): > > No, I think you’re 100% wrong on this. And frankly my statement is what the “me too” movement is all about in my opinion. > > When I was in junior high school a cousin of mine had a similar experience and the advice that she received was that “only you can make you a victim. Are you going to do something about it? Is this going to define you this way?” She took action, went to the authorities, went though some difficult times and came out the other end better for it. > > This forced me to confront an issue that I had a number of years prior, and I initially didn’t handle it the way my female cousin did. I hid and didn’t confront it. I’m not going to go into details, and I don’t want any sympathy or discussion about it, but I’ll just say it involved a 12 year old boy as a piano student (me) and a priest piano instructor. So I had to ask myself some questions, and assess what my life was going to be. Then I had to confront some issues that no 15 year old male in the 1970s wanted to discuss with his mother, or father, his school friends or the church I’ll tell 'ya. And I went though some difficult times and came out the other end better for it. > > So when I see a successful, tough, professional journalist with some means, support, and a voice say that she just couldn’t cope or deal with it for 20 years and I look back at some young kids who found a way I do it and I shake my head. The two of you are not everybody and do not represent everybody. > [@](#): > > And yes, I wonder if, possibly it didn’t really happen. The world is tough, and if you want to get through it, well, sometimes hard is f’ing authorized. Ever hear of blaming the victim? You’re doing it. And it makes your concluding remarks irrelevant and nonsensical. > [@](#): > > And if and when that philosophy permeates our culture and pushes the victim mentality out of it, our country will be a better place, and bullies will realize that they have no place to hide. I thought that was what the whole me too movement was all about. People who are abused aren’t going to be victims any more. We’re going to grab the bull by the horns and take some action. Though this may be true, you’ve lost any credibility to say it. Carroll did take action, and in a far more public way than almost anybody. She did so when the time was right for her. You do not get a say in her timing. You do not get a say in any part of her life, especially if you think she’s lying in the first place. You do not get to have it both ways. ---
**Author:** ![LAZombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b38774/32.png) [@LAZombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LAZombie)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-columnist-trump-raped-me-in-a-fitting-room/836042/195 "2019-06-28T22:30:04Z")
> [@Moriarty](#): > > We can read the link, too, ya’ know. > Are you quoting a contemporaneous account to suggest that it did not happen, or that Trump did, in fact, screw a woman in a dressing room without her consent, but it simply isn’t serious enough to care about? > > Because I don’t understand how you can quote this confirmation as anything other than evidence that Trump, did, in fact put his penis in a woman without her consent, as verified by two people who were told at the time. I believe E. Jean Carroll called her friend to brag about the encounter ergo the laughing. Her friend Birnbach who was probably jealous or a militant feminist convinced Carroll that what was a consensual encounter was actually rape. Trump didn’t even wine and dine her and basically used her so Carroll became bitter and decided to call what happened as rape. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-columnist-trump-raped-me-in-a-fitting-room/836042/196 "2019-06-28T22:36:33Z")
> [@LAZombie](#): > > I believe E. Jean Carroll called her friend to brag about the encounter ergo the laughing. Her friend Birnbach who was probably jealous or a militant feminist convinced Carroll that what was a consensual encounter was actually rape. Trump didn’t even wine and dine her and basically used her so Carroll became bitter and decided to call what happened as rape. You know what, with no evidence this baseless supposition is simply trolling. This is a warning for trolling. And you are prohibited from posting further in this thread. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-columnist-trump-raped-me-in-a-fitting-room/836042/197 "2019-06-28T22:51:33Z")
> [@LAZombie](#): > > I believe E. Jean Carroll called her friend to brag about the encounter ergo the laughing. Her friend Birnbach who was probably jealous or a militant feminist convinced Carroll that what was a consensual encounter was actually rape. Trump didn’t even wine and dine her and basically used her so Carroll became bitter and decided to call what happened as rape. I see Bone’s moderation (and, FWIW, I don’t agree with it - yes, I understand that belongs elsewhere), so I hope I’m not out of bounds. But given this description of Lisa Birnbach, I think it’s only fair to describe her as she does on her [website](http://lisabirnbach.com/#bio). > [@](#): > > Lisa Birnbach is an award-winning journalist, cultural commentator and bestselling author. Celebrated for her keen eye, sharp wit and humor, Lisa is a media favorite. Best known as the author of The New York Times bestsellers, The Official Preppy Handbook and True Prep, she’s published 20 other books, which have been translated into a dozen languages. The Preppy Handbook became a runaway bestseller and a tongue-in-cheek reference guide for a generation. She’s written for The New York Times, The New Yorker, Parade, Rolling Stone, New York, and other magazines in addition to Yahoo! She was a correspondent on CBS’s The Early Show for three years, and hosted The Lisa Birnbach Show, a daily syndicated radio show which received the Gracie Awards in 2007 for Outstanding Talk Show, and Outstanding Humor Show. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-columnist-trump-raped-me-in-a-fitting-room/836042/198 "2019-06-28T22:54:57Z")
> [@Moriarty](#): > > I see Bone’s moderation (and, FWIW, I don’t agree with it - yes, I understand that belongs elsewhere), so I hope I’m not out of bounds. But given this description of Lisa Birnbach, I think it’s only fair to describe her as she does on her [website](http://lisabirnbach.com/#bio). Questions or discussion about moderation goes in ATMB. No more in this thread. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-columnist-trump-raped-me-in-a-fitting-room/836042/199 "2019-06-28T23:12:09Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You’ve presented no evidence she’s not telling the truth. Her story provides no evidence. It’s just a story. No evidence is necessary to refute it. > [@](#): > > By making such accusations with absolutely no evidence, you’re making it harder for women in the future. Sure. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-columnist-trump-raped-me-in-a-fitting-room/836042/200 "2019-06-28T23:19:52Z")
Her story is evidence, in and of itself. And in the vast majority of rape cases that’s all there will ever be. Are you suggesting that in the vast majority of rape cases, the victim is obligated to keep ēs mouth shut forever? According to Muslim law, a woman must have the corroboration of four men who have seen the penetration with their own eyes in order for a charge of rape to be confirmed. Otherwise the woman will be charged with adultery. Sounds like there are some folks here who would be more comfortable with that standard. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-columnist-trump-raped-me-in-a-fitting-room/836042/201 "2019-06-28T23:21:18Z")
> [@Poysyn](#): > > Interesting - that IS what the MeToo movement is about. Victims are “madder than hell and they are not going to take it anymore”, so no, they are not always reporting to police, who have (historically) treated these people very, very badly, they are telling their stories how THEY want to - not how other people may wish. They are being loud, and using platforms available to them to be loud. > > This is grabbing the bull by the horns, do you really not see that at all? I like you a lot, but I’m kind of against this. The whole climbing up about of the abyss of chaos and anarchy, and living as a Society of civilized human beings who may disagree with disapprove of and conflict with each other without killing each other and being the better because of it depends on the societal compact of not taking things into your own hands. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-columnist-trump-raped-me-in-a-fitting-room/836042.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-columnist-trump-raped-me-in-a-fitting-room/836042.md?page=11)