# Advice columnist: Trump raped me in a fitting room **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 25, 2019, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-columnist-trump-raped-me-in-a-fitting-room/836042 "2019-06-25T16:34:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-columnist-trump-raped-me-in-a-fitting-room/836042/462 "2019-07-02T18:59:38Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > To be clear that checkmate is directed at you, not the Me Too movement. I would guess that the Me Too movement would have seen that they were proposing something that made it impossible for a falsely accused person to prove their innocence, and realized the problem. > > Your interpretation of Me Too neglects to do so. My “interpretation of Me Too” neglects to exist, too. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-columnist-trump-raped-me-in-a-fitting-room/836042/463 "2019-07-02T19:03:37Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > Ok. Now we’re talking. > > You said that you are not really aware of being damaged by false on other than a rare basis. > > “Rare” is going to be a tough word for either of us to work or define. Numbers have been shown in this thread that peg false accusations at 5-8%. It’s been pointed out that only a fraction of rapes are reported so that even if this number is correct the actual rape to false accusation ratio is much lower. At the same time the number only accounts for formal accusations in the form of police reports. Lots of other allegations are made outside of that channel, through the media, threatened in a divorce, etc. etc. filing a false police report carries consequences, so those more casual accusations (nothing casual, just for lack of a better word) would also skew the # of false accusations as a percentage of all accusations higher. The long and short of this is that if we are trying to be objective we really can’t say what percentage of all accusations of rape are false. There is not enough good data for us to be intelligent about it. We do know that it happens. Maybe it’s rarer than even you think. Maybe it’s more common than I think, but it does happen. Those statistics were about “unfounded” allegations. That doesn’t mean they were false. > [@](#): > > I tried to be as fair as I could there and I brought this up for a reason. > > You say it is wrong to denigrate a victim telling her story. Denigrate includes doubting it’s veracity. It’s wrong because we are doing harm to a victim, right? > > You seem to agree and understand that the simple fact of making an accusation is immensely and incredibly damaging to the accused, potentially catastrophically so. > > If the guy is guilty, good. Fuck him. > > However, if the guy is not guilty, the greatest chance that he has of mitigating the damage, of demonstrating his innocence, is to doubt her story. His friends family advocates all need to examine the story, proclaim its falsehood, and rip it apart in order to do so. By placing the accuser in such a position where they cannot be denigrated by skepticism you are robbing the falsely accused of the opportunity to defend themselves and forcing them to suffer consequences they don’t deserve. By not doubting you are hurting an innocent person. They can defend themselves all they want, and they can do so without denigrating the accuser. And at the same time, if they’re innocent, they can have their lawyers and investigators actually investigate and find evidence the accuser is lying. All this is possible without publicly denigrating a woman who just told their story. > [@](#): > > The biggest problem to what you have described, the killer to the whole deal is the following: > > You have said that we can’t Denigrate an accuser and must believe them unless they have been proven to lie. I don’t care what you believe. I’m critical of actions, including public statements, that might make it harder for future victims and survivors to come forward. Believe anything you want. It’s what you say and do that matters. And feel free to say “I’m reserving judgment”, or “I’m not sure”. That doesn’t denigrate anyone. > [@](#): > > There is a HUGE problem with this. > > How can you prove something is a lie unless you begin with the premise that is false? The very act of trying to show that something is false is to doubt it. If we are believing we are not going to ask the hard questions that might prove it false. That would be insulting. We would be causing pain to an innocent victim. > > This is a classic catch 22. > > We may not denigrate a victim by doubting and must believe her unless it has been proven false. You can’t prove something false without denigrating it by day doubting its facts. > > If we follow your rules, all accusations are true and all accused are guilty. > > Not only have you transferred the burden of proof from the accuser to the accused where they must prove they didn’t do it, you have also disallowed anyone from engaging in the process that could provide proof of innocence simply because engaging in that process intrinsically creates doubt and can’t exist without it, which is a denigration of the accused. > Checkmate. LOL. This might “checkmate” this straw man, but not what I advocate for. Again, the accused (if innocent) can defend themselves and send out their lawyers and investigators to find proof of the truth, and all this can be done without making it harder for future victims to come forward by denigrating accusers. And if they find evidence of dishonesty, then I have no problem with them revealing that evidence. And in all likelihood, nothing significantly bad will happen to them, no matter the truth. Right now, our society is massively tilted towards the accused, and towards abusers, and away from fairness and compassion to victims and survivors. I’m trying to tilt it to be compassionate and fair to victims and survivors. Nothing I’ve suggested puts innocent people at any more risk than exists now. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-columnist-trump-raped-me-in-a-fitting-room/836042/464 "2019-07-02T19:04:07Z")
This is not a court, this is a message board. We are not obliged to uphold standards that apply to courts. Were I sworn to jury duty, I would not find Il Douche guilty, because such proof is not available. I am, however, entitled to my opinion of the slimy pustule on the butt of humanity. I can fairly say that these recent accusations have not affected my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-columnist-trump-raped-me-in-a-fitting-room/836042/465 "2019-07-02T19:09:43Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Two things are inevitable when one plays games with oneself, and the first is that one tends to win no matter how the game is played. If you’ve played chess more than casually, you would know that calling checkmate is not “Ha. Ha. I win.” When you say it you are saying “I am confident enough in my position that I believe I have won. I ask you to judge it fairly and agree. If you do not, I agree to help you in good faith prove me wrong. If we do so I will concede.” In the context of this debate it means I have made a complete argument which I stand behind and which was made in good faith. I ask you to acknowledge that it is true and fair and accurate. If you think it’s not, I will stop arguing for it, and instead take your side and help you prove it wrong. I know you are more of the scream “ you cheated” throw the board in the air and storm out of the room type. But that’s what I mean when I say it. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-columnist-trump-raped-me-in-a-fitting-room/836042/466 "2019-07-02T19:13:45Z")
Or something along the lines of the Black Knight, so recently disarmed. “Come back, you coward, I’ll bite your legs off!” ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-columnist-trump-raped-me-in-a-fitting-room/836042/467 "2019-07-02T19:13:50Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > This is not a court, this is a message board. We are not obliged to uphold standards that apply to courts. Were I sworn to jury duty, I would not find Il Douche guilty, because such proof is not available. I am, however, entitled to my opinion of the slimy pustule on the butt of humanity. I can fairly say that these recent accusations have not affected my opinion. I agree. ( ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-columnist-trump-raped-me-in-a-fitting-room/836042/468 "2019-07-02T19:16:06Z")
I say “checkmate’” when I play chess and the occasion calls for it. Using the term while debating only looks pretentious. And this? > [@](#): > > I know you are more of the scream “ you cheated” throw the board in the air and storm out of the room type. A confident debater would never resort to such a tactic. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-columnist-trump-raped-me-in-a-fitting-room/836042/469 "2019-07-02T19:30:32Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > LOL. This might “checkmate” this straw man, but not what I advocate for. Ok. Show me wrong. I will work with you to understand. > [@](#): > > Again, the accused (if innocent) can defend themselves and send out their lawyers and investigators to find proof of the truth, and all this can be done without making it harder for future victims to come forward by denigrating accusers. And if they find evidence of dishonesty, then I have no problem with them revealing that evidence. Ok. If I am falsely accused and every word I say is true, could I go on the news and say: “She is lying. She tried to extort money from me by threatening to accuse me of rape. She is housekeeper we tried to help. We talked to her and gave her a second chance when we caught her stealing. She snuck her boyfriend in and did drugs and had sex with him in front of our children when she was babysitting which is why we fired her. That is when she extorted us She is a person of low character and it is likely that she has done these kinds of things before. If you know her and have experience of her low character please come forward publicly or privately so that I can mount the strongest possible defense.” ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-columnist-trump-raped-me-in-a-fitting-room/836042/470 "2019-07-02T19:31:57Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I say “checkmate’” when I play chess and the occasion calls for it. Using the term while debating only looks pretentious. > And this? > A confident debater would never resort to such a tactic. Yeah, but I’ve seen you debate and watched you throw the table. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-columnist-trump-raped-me-in-a-fitting-room/836042/471 "2019-07-02T19:34:49Z")
Prove it. Cite it, chapter and verse. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-columnist-trump-raped-me-in-a-fitting-room/836042/472 "2019-07-02T19:35:57Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Prove it. Cite it, chapter and verse. No. > [@Scylla](#): > > I know you are more of the scream “ you cheated” throw the board in the air and storm out of the room type. But that’s what I mean when I say it. > [@Scylla](#): > > Yeah, but I’ve seen you debate and watched you throw the table. These comments are not appropriate for this forum as it’s personalizing an argument. This is the 2nd note I’ve dropped for you in this thread. That’s the limit of my forbearance. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-columnist-trump-raped-me-in-a-fitting-room/836042/473 "2019-07-02T19:37:12Z")
NM ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-columnist-trump-raped-me-in-a-fitting-room/836042/474 "2019-07-02T19:41:16Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > Ok. Show me wrong. I will work with you to understand. I just did, in the post you snipped. What I advocate for doesn’t hamper any honest media defense strategy. It might hamper the media defense strategies that rely on slut-shaming, but those are highly immoral and should be hampered. > [@](#): > > Ok. If I am falsely accused and every word I say is true, could I go on the news and say: > > “She is lying. She tried to extort money from me by threatening to accuse me of rape. She is housekeeper we tried to help. We talked to her and gave her a second chance when we caught her stealing. She snuck her boyfriend in and did drugs and had sex with him in front of our children when she was babysitting which is why we fired her. That is when she extorted us She is a person of low character and it is likely that she has done these kinds of things before. If you know her and have experience of her low character please come forward publicly or privately so that I can mount the strongest possible defense.” Some of this doesn’t denigrate anyone. Some of this denigrates the accuser, but I wouldn’t have a problem with it if it was accompanied by proof. Some of this is slut-shaming and irrelevant to the accusations. I don’t advocate for any laws restricting what the accused can say, but I think it’s wrong to denigrate an accuser without proof of dishonesty, and I think it’s extremely wrong and harmful to society to slut-shame (in general) and use slut-shaming as a defense. I also think a defense such as this could be accomplished without denigrating (without proof) or slut-shaming. If your hypothetical above is true, then it would be a remarkably easy defense – any decent lawyer and investigator wouldn’t have much trouble ferreting out proof of dishonest intent. So, in my perfect #MeToo-frienly world, the accused can still say anything they like, but if they want to avoid risking harm to future women coming forward, they would avoid denigrating women without proof and slut-shaming entirely. If they ignore this, then IMO they ought to be criticized. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-columnist-trump-raped-me-in-a-fitting-room/836042/475 "2019-07-02T19:44:55Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > No. > > These comments are not appropriate for this forum as it’s personalizing an argument. This is the 2nd note I’ve dropped for you in this thread. That’s the limit of my forbearance. > > [/moderating] Understood. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-columnist-trump-raped-me-in-a-fitting-room/836042/476 "2019-07-02T19:56:01Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I just did, in the post you snipped. What I advocate for doesn’t hamper any honest media defense strategy. It might hamper the media defense strategies that rely on slut-shaming, but those are highly immoral and should be hampered. > > Some of this doesn’t denigrate anyone. Some of this denigrates the accuser, but I wouldn’t have a problem with it if it was accompanied by proof. Some of this is slut-shaming and irrelevant to the accusations. > > I don’t advocate for any laws restricting what the accused can say, but I think it’s wrong to denigrate an accuser without proof of dishonesty, and I think it’s extremely wrong and harmful to society to slut-shame (in general) and use slut-shaming as a defense. I also think a defense such as this could be accomplished without denigrating (without proof) or slut-shaming. If your hypothetical above is true, then it would be a remarkably easy defense – any decent lawyer and investigator wouldn’t have much trouble ferreting out proof of dishonest intent. > > So, in my perfect #MeToo-frienly world, the accused can still say anything they like, but if they want to avoid risking harm to future women coming forward, they would avoid denigrating women without proof and slut-shaming entirely. If they ignore this, then IMO they ought to be criticized. Do you think it’s slut shaming to say she had sex in front of the kids while babysitting? The shame isn’t the sex. It’s doing it in front of the kids. It doesn’t matter though. Can my lawyer say the same thing in front of the camera make the same points? What about friends family and coworkers? If I am being attacked on the internet can random strangers who don’t know me but have heard these things on tv or whatnot respond to the attackers and repeat these things? If I knew the accuser because she had Also worked for me as a housekeeper, and she stole money from me, too? Could I come forward and say that? If I knew her and didn’t like her is it ok for me to say what I thought about her? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-columnist-trump-raped-me-in-a-fitting-room/836042/477 "2019-07-02T19:58:07Z")
Does mentioning that she waited decades before making the accusation public, is making a book tour, says that she regrets not asking for her alleged attacker’s tax returns, and thinks most people think rape is sexy, count as denigrating without proof? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![CAH66](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7bcc69/32.png) [@CAH66](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CAH66)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-columnist-trump-raped-me-in-a-fitting-room/836042/478 "2019-07-02T21:20:04Z")
I don’t see how anyone can reasonably advocate that a default position for any statement be belief or non-belief without examination. Not believing someone is not the same thing as denigrating them. “I’m not convinced of your story/motive/honesty” is **NOT** the same thing as “You are a fucking liar.” Neither is pointing out factors that tend to confirm **OR** cast doubt on a position. Burden of proof always rests with the claimant, whether the claim is, “He raped me,” or “The world is round,” or “Jesus is lord and savior.” Taking a position that someone must or should be _believed_ based solely on the type of claim being made is not reasonable. ---
**Author:** ![thirdname](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d07c76/32.png) [@thirdname](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thirdname)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-columnist-trump-raped-me-in-a-fitting-room/836042/479 "2019-07-02T22:07:37Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > Ok. If I am falsely accused and every word I say is true, could I go on the news and say: > > “She is lying. She tried to extort money from me by threatening to accuse me of rape. She is housekeeper we tried to help. We talked to her and gave her a second chance when we caught her stealing. She snuck her boyfriend in and did drugs and had sex with him in front of our children when she was babysitting which is why we fired her. That is when she extorted us She is a person of low character and it is likely that she has done these kinds of things before. If you know her and have experience of her low character please come forward publicly or privately so that I can mount the strongest possible defense.” > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Some of this doesn’t denigrate anyone. Some of this denigrates the accuser, but I wouldn’t have a problem with it if it was accompanied by proof. Some of this is slut-shaming and irrelevant to the accusations. What if it’s true that **Scylla** is being extorted by a rape accuser, but he doesn’t have any proof of it? Does that mean he’s not allowed to defend himself and tell the truth that he’s being extorted by his accuser? > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I don’t advocate for any laws restricting what the accused can say, but I think **it’s wrong to denigrate an accuser without proof of dishonesty,** Then why is okay to denigrate the _accused_ publicly without any proof of rape? ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-columnist-trump-raped-me-in-a-fitting-room/836042/480 "2019-07-02T22:29:00Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > There was also the widespread (and incorrect) belief, which unfortunately is still held today by folks like Scylla, that rape is about desiring sex, such that men who could easily get consensual partners would never rape, and that men would never rape someone they don’t find sexually attractive. Are you of the belief that rape is only about power and not at all about sex? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-columnist-trump-raped-me-in-a-fitting-room/836042/481 "2019-07-02T22:30:14Z")
> [@thirdname](#): > > What if it’s true that **Scylla** is being extorted by a rape accuser, but he doesn’t have any proof of it? Does that mean he’s not allowed to defend himself and tell the truth that he’s being extorted by his accuser? I think it’s entirely possible to defend one’s self without denigrating a false accuser without proof. In the hypothetical scenario offered, the defense would be almost trivially easy; any half-decent lawyer could easily handle it. > [@](#): > > Then why is okay to denigrate the _accused_ publicly without any proof of rape? I put forward no opinion on this – our society treats the accused just fine, in general. Much too gently, in many cases, IMO – Trump should well be drummed out of polite society, with no more chance at a public career than someone who was caught on tape bragging about child molestation. Prominent accused abusers generally suffer no significant loss, barring overwhelming evidence like against Weinstein or Cosby, whether the accusations are true or not. Our society treats victims and survivors of sexual assault and rape like utter dog shit. That’s my focus, when it comes to this issue. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-columnist-trump-raped-me-in-a-fitting-room/836042.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-columnist-trump-raped-me-in-a-fitting-room/836042.md?page=25)