# Advice columnist: Trump raped me in a fitting room **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 25, 2019, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-columnist-trump-raped-me-in-a-fitting-room/836042 "2019-06-25T16:34:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-columnist-trump-raped-me-in-a-fitting-room/836042/142 "2019-06-28T15:33:35Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > AThat’s not actually logical. Following the same form, if I brag about how I fly to the moon on magical wings every night, and somebody else accuses me of stealing the American flag off the moon, than it is not logical to conclude that I did it. > > People say all kinds of shit about what they did or didn’t. Nothing anybody says actually changes what happened in the past. There’s a problem with this analogy, which is that flying to the moon on magical wings is fanciful stuff that is not realistically done. So, you are right that logic wouldn’t follow from an accusation of stealing the flag. But, crimes are solved all the time because a person brags about them. If I’m bragging about robbing banks, and then you hear about a bank in my neighborhood that got robbed, yes it is logical to consider me a prime suspect. No, you don’t just get to ‘conclude I did it’, but the logic does flow. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-columnist-trump-raped-me-in-a-fitting-room/836042/143 "2019-06-28T15:51:21Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > How exactly does that work? Very straightforwardly. I’ve talked to, I dunno, 3-500 people who by definition had reported that they were assaulted to _someone_, but most of them never contacted law enforcement about it. The vast majority never contacted law enforcement about it, and preferred to take whatever steps were necessary to keep law enforcement out of it. The calculus was simple: they perceived that nothing good would come of it, and bad things would come of it. As far as I could tell, they had good reasons to believe that. A substantial part of the reason that a substantial percentage of those people didn’t report was that they were afraid of how they would be treated, of the fact that they would not be believed, and of the fact that they would be dragged through another traumatic process which involved reliving the events, being questioned and impugned, and which ultimately led to nothing helpful occurring. The reason that they feel that way is because they are _not stupid_. And they have seen it happen to others. They maybe have been through some of it themselves, either because of past experiences or because of the people they’ve already talked to about their present experience. Literally 100% of the people I have talked to – who again are the people who _do_ report it to somebody – have experienced some significant barrier which was presented by either an authority figure or someone close to them treating them like they had done something wrong. You’re acting like it’s some kind of abstract notion that we’re tossing around, but it’s an extremely concrete and simple thing. People get treated like shit when they report what happened to them. So they don’t do it. And treating people like shit for reporting what happened is the thing that they’re avoiding. I think that there is very little chance that you could understand what those people go through when they try to do the “right” thing and tell someone that another person did a terrible thing to them. I certainly don’t understand it, but I know enough to know that I don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-columnist-trump-raped-me-in-a-fitting-room/836042/144 "2019-06-28T15:56:28Z")
> [@Moriarty](#): > > There’s a problem with this analogy, which is that flying to the moon on magical wings is fanciful stuff that is not realistically done. So, you are right that logic wouldn’t follow from an accusation of stealing the flag. Fair enough, but the fanciful aspects of the analogy were not pertinent. > [@](#): > > But, crimes are solved all the time because a person brags about them. If I’m bragging about robbing banks, and then you hear about a bank in my neighborhood that got robbed, yes it is logical to consider me a prime suspect. No, you don’t just get to ‘conclude I did it’, but the logic does flow. No. It still doesn’t. What you are saying is true but it is not a rebuttal to what I am saying. The Flaw in Chronos’ logic was suggesting that saying something happened effects whether or not it happened. In this particular case she has not filed a police report, still refuses to do so, she won’t release physical evidence for forensic analysis. She is actively working against attempts to take her story seriously and hold the accused accountable. When somebody is actively seeking to thwart attempts to verify their story, I consider that bit of a red flag. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-columnist-trump-raped-me-in-a-fitting-room/836042/145 "2019-06-28T16:06:50Z")
The fanciful aspects of the analogy are absolutely pertinent, and why you included them. We would not believe that someone stole the flag from the Moon because it’s impossible. Trump raping someone, however, is quite possible, and we do believe it. ---
**Author:** ![Les\_Wizerables](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c89c15/32.png) [@Les\_Wizerables](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Les_Wizerables)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-columnist-trump-raped-me-in-a-fitting-room/836042/146 "2019-06-28T16:07:04Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > Fair enough, but the fanciful aspects of the analogy were not pertinent. > > No. It still doesn’t. What you are saying is true but it is not a rebuttal to what I am saying. The Flaw in Chronos’ logic was suggesting that saying something happened effects whether or not it happened. > In this particular case she has not filed a police report, still refuses to do so, she won’t release physical evidence for forensic analysis. She is actively working against attempts to take her story seriously and hold the accused accountable. When somebody is actively seeking to thwart attempts to verify their story, I consider that bit of a red flag. I get that I’m a new guy around here, and even if I wasn’t you would of course be under no obligation to respond simply because I asked. But given that your argument depends on “red flags” I would be curious to hear your explanation as to why your initial recounting of the “red flags” was IMO misleading at best, as I detailed [here](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21720836&postcount=71). Also where are you getting the information that she has rejected a forensic analysis of the coat? I did a google search and didn’t see anything to that effect. I strongly suspect there’s nothing to be gained from such analysis, given the passage of time and the lack of “blue dress” type evidence, but I can’t find any record of someone asking her to do this and her refusing. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-columnist-trump-raped-me-in-a-fitting-room/836042/147 "2019-06-28T16:07:36Z")
Jimmy: Chronos said that someone asking “why did she wait so long,”. Makes that someone the reason she waited so long. I asked how that follows, because unless one posits time travel, it doesn’t. You are responding with a lot of valid stuff about victim blaming, and why victims wait. I agree with that. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-columnist-trump-raped-me-in-a-fitting-room/836042/148 "2019-06-28T16:20:23Z")
Maybe, if your interpretation of what he said requires time travel, that’s one of those “red flags” I’ve been hearing so much about. Maybe there’s a simpler interpretation, which is that he was talking about what I was talking about: statements like yours are the reason people like this person, who have been assaulted, don’t report. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-columnist-trump-raped-me-in-a-fitting-room/836042/149 "2019-06-28T16:21:11Z")
> [@Les\_Wizerables](#): > > But given that your argument depends on “red flags” I would be curious to hear your explanation as to why your initial recounting of the “red flags” was IMO misleading at best, as I detailed [here](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21720836&postcount=71). I disagreed with your premise that I was being misleading, and didn’t and don’t feel obligated to respond. I also generally don’t find arguments along the line of “why did you choose to present this this way, as opposed to some other” as fruitful. They are diversionary in that they change the topic from the discussion at hand to the motives of the person making the argument, which I consider a waste of time. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-columnist-trump-raped-me-in-a-fitting-room/836042/150 "2019-06-28T16:22:36Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > Maybe, if your interpretation of what he said requires time travel, that’s one of those “red flags” I’ve been hearing so much about. Maybe there’s a simpler interpretation, which is that he was talking about what I was talking about: statements like yours are the reason people like this person, who have been assaulted, don’t report. Yes. That’s total bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-columnist-trump-raped-me-in-a-fitting-room/836042/151 "2019-06-28T16:24:51Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > People get treated like shit when they report what happened to them. So they don’t do it. And treating people like shit for reporting what happened is the thing that they’re avoiding. You are discussing ‘typical’ victims. Now, add to the equation the fact that the perpetrator is very wealthy and has access to lots of publicity and lots of lawyers. The ‘treating like shit’ just got ramped up exponentially. Additionally, of course, there is likely guilt and shame of having ‘put yourself in that position.’ Many rapes started with flirtation. There might be cases where the woman was very attracted to the man, even willing to become a ‘side fling’ for the thrill of it all. She might have been dressed to ‘impress’, might have even been looking ‘for attention’. (Strange, isn’t it, that rich people don’t feel so similarly shamed if they get robbed?) The key, of course, is that a woman doesn’t give up her ability to make decisions for herself at any point in this dalliance. A woman can be flirty with a man she has desires for and still not be willing to consent to sexual activity on his terms; her ‘no’ is just as valid. She is entitled to want ‘attention’ while still maintaining the right to decline unwanted attention. No amount of overt ‘sexiness’ amounts to consent without actually consenting. But those doubts are real. When coupled with the other aspects of victim shaming already discussed, these questions about the woman’s role most certainly contribute to the reluctance. And, in that vain, I completely understand how E. Jean Caroll chose to tell her story. She knows that people are going to question her behavior, scrutinize her actions, and wonder whether she is being truthful or opportunistic. So, she told the story on her terms - she wrote a book, which meant that nobody could edit her words in a way she didn’t want. From what I gather from excerpts and interviews, she owns the ambiguities in her story (e.g. yes, she was an ambitious woman in New York who sought to run in the biggest and most glamorous circles). She doesn’t shy away from the fact that, yes, she was flirting with a married man. And, yes, she was discussing a sexualized topic (lingerie) with him. And she even walked into an isolated room with him. I, personally, think it all adds to her credibility. She could have erased any possibility culpability she had to put herself in that situation. And, in fact, she could be loudly clamoring for ‘justice’ regarding a crime that is decades old, in pursuit of martyrdom. I think the fact that she is instead coming out and basically saying “Here’s my truth, ugly thought it may be. Deal with it.” without asking for a monetary reward or criminal prosecution makes it believable. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-columnist-trump-raped-me-in-a-fitting-room/836042/152 "2019-06-28T16:25:17Z")
> [@spifflog](#): > > You mention that it’s hard to tell authorities about it. But you know what? In my business we have an adage when people say something is hard. “Hard is fucking authorized.” Yes, let’s talk about your line of business: [“Unreported sexual assaults surge at military academies, Pentagon finds.”](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/31/us/politics/military-sexual-assault.html) Combat pilot turned senator: “[Like many victims, I felt the system was raping me all over again.](https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/06/politics/martha-mcsally-rape-sexual-assault-survivor/index.html)” ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-columnist-trump-raped-me-in-a-fitting-room/836042/153 "2019-06-28T16:36:51Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > I disagreed with your premise that I was being misleading, and didn’t and don’t feel obligated to respond. I also generally don’t find arguments along the line of “why did you choose to present this this way, as opposed to some other” as fruitful. They are diversionary in that they change the topic from the discussion at hand to the motives of the person making the argument, which I consider a waste of time. This is in response to **Les Wizerable** (welcome!), who pointed out some material inconsistencies between the facts of the story and your description, which absolutely go to the credibility and believability of the story. I’d love for you to reconcile them, because, as **Les** has pointed out, this is not an accurate description of what happened (my bolds): > [@Scylla](#): > > A guy walks up to you in a clothing store and suggests you model lingerie for him (literally the creepiest pick up line ever, but it’s Trump, so ok.) > > **You respond positively to this and pick out a transparent piece of lingerie** and go with him into the dressing room of Bergdorf Goodman. He then aggressively tries to have sex with you. **You push him away laughing** (this is her story, mind you). Then he engages in intercourse. **You never say “no” “stop” or scream for help** , though it is a small dressing room **in a crowded store in a public place**. **It’s not really clear from your own story that you ever withdrew consent** **You don’t describe the aftermath**. You don’t go to the police. **You don’t tell anyone** except two close friends. You don’t mention in your columns or public forums though you have a platform and a voice that would let you do so. You don’t come out and mention during the 2016 elections when many other credible allegations against Trump and his bad behavior come out. ---
**Author:** ![Les\_Wizerables](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c89c15/32.png) [@Les\_Wizerables](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Les_Wizerables)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-columnist-trump-raped-me-in-a-fitting-room/836042/154 "2019-06-28T16:57:09Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > I disagreed with your premise that I was being misleading, and didn’t and don’t feel obligated to respond. I also generally don’t find arguments along the line of “why did you choose to present this this way, as opposed to some other” as fruitful. They are diversionary in that they change the topic from the discussion at hand to the motives of the person making the argument, which I consider a waste of time. Fair enough. But my argument made no effort to change the topic, IMO. I think ignoring or providing false information about Carroll’s story is central to the topic. You claimed that Carroll said/did very little to resist Trump’s advances either at the flirtation stage or during the alleged assault. But that simply isn’t true. Would you agree that, by her account, she resisted his “model this lingerie” advances for a while before acquiescing, and offered quite a bit of physical resistance to the actual assault? Also I’m still curious about the basis for the claim that Carroll has refused forensic testing of her dresscoat. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-columnist-trump-raped-me-in-a-fitting-room/836042/155 "2019-06-28T18:00:04Z")
> [@Les\_Wizerables](#): > > Fair enough. But my argument made no effort to change the topic, IMO. But you did. > [@](#): > > I think ignoring or providing false information about Carroll’s story is central to the topic. That’s the change of topic I was talking about. You are calling me a liar. My suggestion is this: If you think somebody is lying or providing false information. don’t waste your time debating them. If you do want them talk to them don’t lead off with calling them a liar. When someone goes that route with me, I make it a point of not giving them what they want by responding to the arguments. I say this not because I am offended. I am truly not. I don’t care. It’s just not a conducive start to a productive or interesting discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-columnist-trump-raped-me-in-a-fitting-room/836042/156 "2019-06-28T18:02:24Z")
You seem to be having a negative experience with having your motives called into question. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-columnist-trump-raped-me-in-a-fitting-room/836042/157 "2019-06-28T18:02:56Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > Yes. That’s total bullshit. It’s absolutely not bullshit. We can hear it from the women themselves – they generally don’t come forward because they get dragged through the mud, insulted, attacked, etc., rather than welcomed with compassion, empathy, and seriousness. Your response was much closer to “attacked” and “insulted” than “welcomed with compassion, empathy, and seriousness”. And this is what I hear personally, too. Most of the women I know were, at some point, raped or sexually assaulted. Very, very few of them reported it to the police. Like less than 10%. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-columnist-trump-raped-me-in-a-fitting-room/836042/158 "2019-06-28T18:04:54Z")
> [@Les\_Wizerables](#): > > Fair enough. But my argument made no effort to change the topic, IMO. I think ignoring or providing false information about Carroll’s story is central to the topic. Yup, it’s very central. It goes to the idea that accusers don’t just have to contend with victim-blaming and biased skepticism, but they also risk having people misconstrue their accounts to further justify victim-blaming and skepticism. ---
**Author:** ![Poysyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Poysyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Poysyn)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-columnist-trump-raped-me-in-a-fitting-room/836042/159 "2019-06-28T18:11:17Z")
> [@spifflog](#): > > In my business we have an adage when people say something is hard. “Hard is fucking authorized.” I missed this, sorry. The military culture makes it about a million times harder to come forward. Both Canadian and American militaries are working very hard to figure this out, and, at least in Canada, we are realizing that we NEED to move to a victim-centric approach. 90% of women that are sexually assaulted leave uniform within a year of being assaulted. We can’t afford to lose enthusiastic personnel that want to serve due to sexual assault. Please do not use it as an example of how to do things when it comes to sexual assault. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-columnist-trump-raped-me-in-a-fitting-room/836042/160 "2019-06-28T18:17:30Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It’s absolutely not bullshit. We can hear it from the women themselves – they generally don’t come forward because they get dragged through the mud, insulted, attacked, etc., rather than welcomed with compassion, empathy, and seriousness. Your response was much closer to “attacked” and “insulted” than “welcomed with compassion, empathy, and seriousness”. > > And this is what I hear personally, too. Most of the women I know were, at some point, raped or sexually assaulted. Very, very few of them reported it to the police. Like less than 10%. It’s total bullshit. Women should come forward to the proper authorities. They should feel comfortable coming forward when they do so, and be treated appropriately. When they don’t, why they didn’t is pertinent and valid across multiple dimensions. Asking “why” they don’t when they don’t is not what causes them not to. Treating them like shit when they do is what causes it. These are two different things. ---
**Author:** ![Poysyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Poysyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Poysyn)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-columnist-trump-raped-me-in-a-fitting-room/836042/161 "2019-06-28T18:18:22Z")
That is an American stat, by the way. We don’t have that number yet for Canada. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-columnist-trump-raped-me-in-a-fitting-room/836042.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-columnist-trump-raped-me-in-a-fitting-room/836042.md?page=9)