# Advice for those new to monogramming and to nouveau snobs **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 15, 2006, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-for-those-new-to-monogramming-and-to-nouveau-snobs/368844 "2006-08-15T16:56:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Tabula\_Rasa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a9adbd/32.png) [@Tabula\_Rasa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tabula_Rasa)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2006, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-for-those-new-to-monogramming-and-to-nouveau-snobs/368844/21 "2006-08-15T19:20:10Z")
Traditionally speaking: Monogramming is much more complicated than any simple rule – even the one advanced by the OP. My understanding is that the three letter monogram with the big center letter is a woman’s monogram and is appropriately used on household linen – especially towels and sheets adn pillow cases. Bedspreads are not monogrammed and table linen tends to be monogrammed with a single letter, the initial of a surname. Trousseau linens are monogrammed with a woman’s first initial, the big initial of her maiden name, and her middle initial. So is her pre-marital stationery, which she uses until the first time she needs to re-order after her marriage. So, her thank you notes for wedding gifts are written on her maiden name cards, etc. Any linens purchased after marriage are marked with the woman’s first initial, her big married surname initial, and her maiden name initial. The only time men use a little, big, little monogramming format is – maybe-- on their own personal stationery. However, men can’t go wrong with block letters in first, middle, last name order – on their shirt cuffs, on their boxers, on their pajamas, and stamped on leather goods, embossed or in raised ink print (engraving) on stationery, and engraved on personal silver items: fountain pens, cufflinks, snuffboxes, hairbrushes, hipflasks, razors, etc. Household silver can be marked with a woman’s three letter monogram, as appropriate to the date of its purchase ( either before or after marriage)or a single surname initial, again as appropriate by date. The best silver, of course, is the stuff marked with the monogram of your great-grandmother’s childless first marriage, especially if none of the letters bear any relation to anyone in the current household. Dog collars are marked with the single letter of the household, unless the dog is a poodle or some other kind of “lady’s dog”, in which case it is marked with the lady’s monogram. Tabby ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2006, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-for-those-new-to-monogramming-and-to-nouveau-snobs/368844/22 "2006-08-15T19:37:20Z")
[QUOTE=ivylass] I guess I’m an idiot. When I had my son’s backpack monogrammed, it just looked wrong to have the last initial go in the middle. His initials are TJS. I don’t want his monogram to be T **S** J. It just looks wrong. Sorry if I offended you. Also, his backback is LL Bean, so the “error” will last forever. [/QUOTE] You put the word _error_ in quotes as if to imply that it’s not an error. Hasn’t this been adequately explained? Try reading the OP again, you’ll understand if you try. Isn’t it intuitively obvious that a person’s middle initial is the least relevant part of their name? Why would anyone think to make their middle initial extra big? ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2006, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-for-those-new-to-monogramming-and-to-nouveau-snobs/368844/23 "2006-08-15T20:11:14Z")
[QUOTE=dropzone] Look, you chimps at embroidery shops, you monkeys running engraving machines, and you blue-assed baboons who order monogrammed junk but are too stupid to notice when it is done wrong, the SURNAME INITIAL goes in the MIDDLE, not the MIDDLE NAME INITIAL! Nobody cares what your middle name is. Hell, usually nobody KNOWS what your middle name is. What matters first is your family name, because that determines your quality, and second is your given name, so people know WHICH Howell (Thurston or Lovie) you are. The initial of (one of your) your middle name(s)–or of your husband’s given name–goes on the right to balance the composition. [/QUOTE] My mother would love you. Her first name begins with an S and her maiden name began with a B. My grandmother decided she wanted my mother’s initials to spell something so gave her the made-up middle name of Orlise. So for decades my mother’s friends delighted in buying her items monogrammed with **SOB**. She hates monogrammed stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2006, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-for-those-new-to-monogramming-and-to-nouveau-snobs/368844/24 "2006-08-15T20:32:52Z")
[QUOTE=BMalion] Ah, but what if you only have a first and a last name, with no middle initial? [/QUOTE] As previously mentioned, the second had better be Rex or Regina. Otherwise, you should go report your stolen name. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2006, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-for-those-new-to-monogramming-and-to-nouveau-snobs/368844/25 "2006-08-15T20:45:17Z")
[QUOTE=Quartz] \ That’d be, ‘A simple equation that seperates you from hoi polloi’ \ ‘hoi’ is Attic Greek (masculine plural TBP) for ‘the’. [/QUOTE] That’d be, ‘A simple equation that separates you from hoi polloi’ “separates” contains “a rat”. ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2006, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-for-those-new-to-monogramming-and-to-nouveau-snobs/368844/26 "2006-08-15T21:02:10Z")
[QUOTE=Excalibre] You put the word _error_ in quotes as if to imply that it’s not an error. Hasn’t this been adequately explained? Try reading the OP again, you’ll understand if you try. Isn’t it intuitively obvious that a person’s middle initial is the least relevant part of their name? Why would anyone think to make their middle initial extra big? [/QUOTE] . . . but if her son is a male, as I would assume he is, then it either: 1) isn’t an error since, as has been adequately explained, men don’t use a little/big/little mark; or, 2) is a girl’s mark given to a boy, which though an error is an error of another sort. Right? whole bean – owner of multiple first/middle/last block monogrammed shirts and luggage and a wallet, single letter monogrammed towels and napkins and silver with initials for who knows whom. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2006, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-for-those-new-to-monogramming-and-to-nouveau-snobs/368844/27 "2006-08-15T21:14:34Z")
[QUOTE=BMalion] Ah, but what if you only have a first and a last name, with no middle initial? [/QUOTE] Use “x”, like the airports do. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2006, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-for-those-new-to-monogramming-and-to-nouveau-snobs/368844/28 "2006-08-15T21:22:11Z")
Well, i guess i’m just an uncultured buffon, but i never even knew there was a correct monogram format. I also agree with **gigi** that the OP’s formula only makes sense if the middle letter is, in fact, monogrammed considerably larger than the outside ones. If they’re all the same size, as seems to be the case on many monograms, then having the family initial in the middle just seems stupid. [QUOTE=ivylass] I guess I’m an idiot. When I had my son’s backpack monogrammed, it just looked wrong to have the last initial go in the middle. His initials are TJS. I don’t want his monogram to be T **S** J. It just looks wrong. Sorry if I offended you. Also, his backback is LL Bean, so the “error” will last forever. [/QUOTE] That’s L **Bean** L ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2006, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-for-those-new-to-monogramming-and-to-nouveau-snobs/368844/29 "2006-08-15T21:25:33Z")
Wow, my monogram is the BEST! ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2006, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-for-those-new-to-monogramming-and-to-nouveau-snobs/368844/30 "2006-08-15T21:30:05Z")
[QUOTE=gigi] That’d be, ‘A simple equation that separates you from hoi polloi’ “separates” contains “a rat”. [/QUOTE] Congratulations on spotting my invocation of Gaudere’s Law. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2006, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-for-those-new-to-monogramming-and-to-nouveau-snobs/368844/31 "2006-08-15T21:33:01Z")
The spooky way that thing operates, maybe we should just start calling it **Gaudere** ’s Spell. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2006, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-for-those-new-to-monogramming-and-to-nouveau-snobs/368844/32 "2006-08-15T21:44:44Z")
[QUOTE=whole bean] . . . but if her son is a male, as I would assume he is, then it either: 1) isn’t an error since, as has been adequately explained, men don’t use a little/big/little mark; or, 2) is a girl’s mark given to a boy, which though an error is an error of another sort. Right? [/QUOTE] I would say a double-layered error of another sort! Typically, the man’s monogram is 3 equally-sized letters. John Paul Smith would be JPS (such as on a shirt cuff), not JSP. So, the mistake was 1) getting a female-style or family-style monogram on a boy’s bag (sometimes you see the last initial in the middle & the wife & husband’s first initial on either side, as I think someone else mentioned) and 2) making the large letter the middle initial. ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2006, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-for-those-new-to-monogramming-and-to-nouveau-snobs/368844/33 "2006-08-15T22:11:49Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] I would say a double-layered error of another sort! Typically, the man’s monogram is 3 equally-sized letters. John Paul Smith would be JPS (such as on a shirt cuff), not JSP. So, the mistake was 1) getting a female-style or family-style monogram on a boy’s bag (sometimes you see the last initial in the middle & the wife & husband’s first initial on either side, as I think someone else mentioned) and 2) making the large letter the middle initial. [/QUOTE] i don;t think it’s clear that it was a little/big/little mark. LL Bean does same size block monograms on back packs, [see](http://www.llbean.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?page=llbean-original-book-pack&categoryId=38021&storeId=1&catalogId=1&langId=-1&parentCategory=5179&cat4=2943&shop_method=pp&feat=5179-tn) ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2006, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-for-those-new-to-monogramming-and-to-nouveau-snobs/368844/34 "2006-08-15T22:16:21Z")
[QUOTE=whole bean] i don;t think it’s clear that it was a little/big/little mark. LL Bean does same size block monograms on back packs, [see](http://www.llbean.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?page=llbean-original-book-pack&categoryId=38021&storeId=1&catalogId=1&langId=-1&parentCategory=5179&cat4=2943&shop_method=pp&feat=5179-tn) [/QUOTE] Then why did ivylass bring it up? Now I’m all confused. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![coffeecat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coffeecat/32/3405_2.png) [@coffeecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coffeecat)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2006, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-for-those-new-to-monogramming-and-to-nouveau-snobs/368844/35 "2006-08-15T22:33:53Z")
[QUOTE=Bippy the Beardless] Isn’t a monogram by definition a singular graphical device made up of one or more characters to symbolise a name? So ABC wouldn’t be a monogram anyway. Monograms generally look somewhat similar to the @ symbol. See [http://www.kb.dk/kb/missingbooks/marks/monograms.htm](http://www.kb.dk/kb/missingbooks/marks/monograms.htm) [/QUOTE] So [The Artist Formerly Known As Something Ineffable](http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/54/039_21225~Prince-Posters.jpg) is the classiest one of all. Who knew? ---
**Author:** ![Tabula\_Rasa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a9adbd/32.png) [@Tabula\_Rasa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tabula_Rasa)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2006, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-for-those-new-to-monogramming-and-to-nouveau-snobs/368844/36 "2006-08-15T23:54:27Z")
[QUOTE=coffeecat] So [The Artist Formerly Known As Something Ineffable](http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/54/039_21225~Prince-Posters.jpg) is the classiest one of all. Who knew? [/QUOTE] I believe that would be more of a sigil than a monogram. Of course, I also believe it is pronounced “sweet and sour pork” or something to that effect, when spoken aloud. That’s probably why he went back to Prince. The other was just too damn long. Tabby ---
**Author:** ![Dog80](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6bbea6/32.png) [@Dog80](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dog80)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-for-those-new-to-monogramming-and-to-nouveau-snobs/368844/37 "2006-08-16T00:31:55Z")
[QUOTE=Quartz] \ That’d be, ‘A simple equation that seperates you from hoi polloi’ \ ‘hoi’ is Attic Greek (masculine plural TBP) for ‘the’. [/QUOTE] \ It is still incorrect. If you want to be 100% accurate you have to use the noun “polloi” in the accusative case, ie: ‘A simple equation that separates you from **tous pollous** ’ \ ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-for-those-new-to-monogramming-and-to-nouveau-snobs/368844/38 "2006-08-16T00:40:11Z")
[QUOTE=whole bean] i don;t think it’s clear that it was a little/big/little mark. LL Bean does same size block monograms on back packs, [see](http://www.llbean.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?page=llbean-original-book-pack&categoryId=38021&storeId=1&catalogId=1&langId=-1&parentCategory=5179&cat4=2943&shop_method=pp&feat=5179-tn) [/QUOTE] I know they do, but since she bolded the middle initial, I assumed that meant that it was meant to be bigger. And in the LLBean examples, it clearly shows the big-letter-in-the-middle example to have the last initial in the middle, and the all-one-size example to have the last initial at the end. Maybe she just liked the style of the big-letter-in-the-middle monogram. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-for-those-new-to-monogramming-and-to-nouveau-snobs/368844/39 "2006-08-16T01:11:10Z")
[QUOTE=dropzone] I hoped we were done with the pretentious foolishness of monograms when the Preppy Look died but the other day I saw a person wearing a shirt advertising the singer, Sean Paul, and on the back was the singer’s monogram: **SPH**. From that one would assume that Paul is his family name, but no, it is Henriques! According to his [biography](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sean_Paul) he comes from a good family, yet either he was not taught correctly or else he did not proofread the clothing released in his name. Either option is simply appalling, though I suppose it is not surprising considering his choice of (sniff) career, and it will lead his young admirers to believe that is the correct way to monogram. [/QUOTE] What bothered me here was the idea that the person was wearing _someone else’s_ monogram. What’s the point of that? ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-for-those-new-to-monogramming-and-to-nouveau-snobs/368844/40 "2006-08-16T01:58:01Z")
[QUOTE=Dog80] \ It is still incorrect. If you want to be 100% accurate you have to use the noun “polloi” in the accusative case, ie: ‘A simple equation that separates you from **tous pollous** ’ \ [/QUOTE] Psh. Let’s not get silly here. One does not decline words quoted in other languages. Besides, it would be genitive, not accusative. Who ever heard of an accusative of separation? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-for-those-new-to-monogramming-and-to-nouveau-snobs/368844.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-for-those-new-to-monogramming-and-to-nouveau-snobs/368844.md?page=3)