# Advice for those new to monogramming and to nouveau snobs **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 15, 2006, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-for-those-new-to-monogramming-and-to-nouveau-snobs/368844 "2006-08-15T16:56:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![kittenblue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ba8739/32.png) [@kittenblue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kittenblue)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-for-those-new-to-monogramming-and-to-nouveau-snobs/368844/41 "2006-08-16T02:38:39Z")
As a professional engraver, I often have to deal with (mostly) women who, when told the proper sequence for a monogram (as opposed to a set of initials) say “oh, I don’t like the way that looks” when the last initial is in the center. Honey, it doesn’t matter whether you like how it “looks”, it’s what is right and what isn’t going to make you look like an idiot to people who know better. We get the same problem with women who want us to put an apostrophe in a last name where is doesn’t belong, making their doorknocker possesive instead of plural. “But it looks better that way!” they whine, and I want to say, “fine, but everyone who comes to your door will know you are an idiot”. The worst was a woman who, when told her new husband’s last name was properly made plural by the addition of “es”, told me that looked stupid, and she wouldn’t have it engraved at all. I thought , “how loved must her husband feel at this moment when she denigrates his name” but I didn’t say it out lood…at least I don’t think I did! ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 9:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-for-those-new-to-monogramming-and-to-nouveau-snobs/368844/42 "2006-08-16T09:23:54Z")
[QUOTE=glee] Oh please. :rolleyes: Anybody with 3 initials is a nobody, and shouldn’t aspire to monogramming. Here’s a real Peer of the Realm: SIR ANDREW DAVID FRANCIS CUNYNGHAME OF MILNCRAIG, 12TH BT [/QUOTE] How about: Rameses Nibblick III, Kerplunk Kerplunk, Whoops, Where’s My Thribble? That’d be really annoying to get monogrammed… 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-for-those-new-to-monogramming-and-to-nouveau-snobs/368844/43 "2006-08-16T10:38:19Z")
Maybe I should call up Spanish fashion designers and ask them to start doing some three-letter monograms. All letters are the same size, unless your shirtmaker is in London (which is considered a _nouveau riche_ thing all by itself). ---
**Author:** ![Dog80](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6bbea6/32.png) [@Dog80](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dog80)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-for-those-new-to-monogramming-and-to-nouveau-snobs/368844/44 "2006-08-16T11:25:25Z")
[QUOTE=Helen’s Eidolon] [QUOTE=dog80] \ It is still incorrect. If you want to be 100% accurate you have to use the noun “polloi” in the accusative case, ie: ‘A simple equation that separates you from tous pollous’ \ [/QUOTE] Psh. Let’s not get silly here. One does not decline words quoted in other languages. Besides, it would be genitive, not accusative. Who ever heard of an accusative of separation? [/QUOTE] No, you are wrong! Since you can read Greek, the translation of this phrase is: ‘Μία απλή εξίσωση που σε ξεχωρίζει απο τους πολλούς’. It is definitely in the accusative case. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-for-those-new-to-monogramming-and-to-nouveau-snobs/368844/45 "2006-08-16T11:36:50Z")
What if you have FOUR initials, like I do? (Blame my parents for hyphenating.) Hahaha. Like I’d ever get anything monogrammed, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-for-those-new-to-monogramming-and-to-nouveau-snobs/368844/46 "2006-08-16T11:49:01Z")
[QUOTE=Excalibre] You put the word _error_ in quotes as if to imply that it’s not an error. Hasn’t this been adequately explained? Try reading the OP again, you’ll understand if you try. Isn’t it intuitively obvious that a person’s middle initial is the least relevant part of their name? Why would anyone think to make their middle initial extra big? [/QUOTE] I acknowledge that I’m wrong here. However, to my sensibilities, it doesn’t look right, so I shall do it wrong for my own aesthetic satisfaction. It’s a monogram, for crying out loud. It’s not like I’m insisting that 2 + 2 = 5 because it looks pretty. You, of course, are free to make bigger whatever initial you like. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-for-those-new-to-monogramming-and-to-nouveau-snobs/368844/47 "2006-08-16T12:26:12Z")
[QUOTE=Quartz] \ That’d be, ‘A simple equation that seperates you from hoi polloi’ \ ‘hoi’ is Attic Greek (masculine plural TBP) for ‘the’. [/QUOTE] FWIW, pretty much every style guide I can find acknowledges this claim, but advises using “the hoi polloi”, since “hoi polloi” has been absorbed in full into the English idiom as a synonym for “masses”. Very few English speakers recognise “hoi” as meaning “the”, so the longer form has prevailed since the phrase’s first adoption, as is perfectly consistent with our co-option of other bits of language (alcohol, alchemist etc.). The “the” is only generally ommitted when pretty much everyone recognises the original “the”'s meaning, such as “la” in most adoptions from French and Spanish. And even then it occasionally gets inserted. Anyone for a trip to the La Brea tar pits? ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-for-those-new-to-monogramming-and-to-nouveau-snobs/368844/48 "2006-08-16T12:36:29Z")
[QUOTE=Kyla] What if you have FOUR initials, like I do? (Blame my parents for hyphenating.) [/QUOTE] Ask [JRR Tolkien](http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/1/18/65px-Monogram.jpg). ---
**Author:** ![MizGrand](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cdc98d/32.png) [@MizGrand](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MizGrand)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-for-those-new-to-monogramming-and-to-nouveau-snobs/368844/49 "2006-08-16T12:42:47Z")
Many years ago I wanted to purchase a gift for a friend at _Things Remembered_. A flask, as the giftee was a guy and liked to drink. I went to the counter and picked out the flask and told them his name. Donald Middlename Lastname. The idiots did a male monogram and enlarged his middle initial. I didn’t even notice it until it was time to give the gift and I felt like a fool. Fortunately, he wasn’t hoity-toity and didn’t know the diff. Esp since it was filled with some Jim Beam. He figgered he was a lucky guy. I’m planning on another flask purchase this week. Gonna make sure the people know how to do it right this time. I’m too old now to look like an idiot. ---
**Author:** ![Wolfian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/7ea924/32.png) [@Wolfian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolfian)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-for-those-new-to-monogramming-and-to-nouveau-snobs/368844/50 "2006-08-16T13:03:03Z")
[QUOTE=Dead Badger] FWIW, pretty much every style guide I can find acknowledges this claim, but advises using “the hoi polloi”, since “hoi polloi” has been absorbed in full into the English idiom as a synonym for “masses”. Very few English speakers recognise “hoi” as meaning “the”, so the longer form has prevailed since the phrase’s first adoption, as is perfectly consistent with our co-option of other bits of language (alcohol, alchemist etc.). The “the” is only generally ommitted when pretty much everyone recognises the original “the”'s meaning, such as “la” in most adoptions from French and Spanish. And even then it occasionally gets inserted. Anyone for a trip to the La Brea tar pits? [/QUOTE] Thank you. Heh, “tous pollous.” I may need to use that. ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-for-those-new-to-monogramming-and-to-nouveau-snobs/368844/51 "2006-08-16T13:31:02Z")
[QUOTE=Dead Badger] …Anyone for a trip to the La Brea tar pits? [/QUOTE] As soon as I stop at the ATM machine. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-for-those-new-to-monogramming-and-to-nouveau-snobs/368844/52 "2006-08-16T14:18:09Z")
[QUOTE=Dead Badger] FWIW, pretty much every style guide I can find acknowledges this claim, but advises using “the hoi polloi”, since “hoi polloi” has been absorbed in full into the English idiom as a synonym for “masses”. Very few English speakers recognise “hoi” as meaning “the”, so the longer form has prevailed since the phrase’s first adoption, as is perfectly consistent with our co-option of other bits of language (alcohol, alchemist etc.). The “the” is only generally ommitted when pretty much everyone recognises the original “the”'s meaning, such as “la” in most adoptions from French and Spanish. And even then it occasionally gets inserted. Anyone for a trip to the La Brea tar pits? [/QUOTE] You also have to consider that it is not used the same way it was when the expression was introduced in English. When the upper class used “hoi polloi,” it was meant as a mild insult: “That may be good enough for hoi polloi…” However, it is now used exclusively to mock someone who would have used it back when the experssion had it’s original meaning, so adding another article demonstrates that you absolutely DO NOT know what it means and wouldn’t want to learn. “They think it’s good enough for the hoi polloi, but not for them.” ---
**Author:** ![Wolfian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/7ea924/32.png) [@Wolfian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolfian)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-for-those-new-to-monogramming-and-to-nouveau-snobs/368844/53 "2006-08-16T14:24:41Z")
[QUOTE=BMalion] As soon as I stop at the ATM machine. [/QUOTE] Be careful entering your pin on it. You might get the HIV virus. ---
**Author:** ![Wolfian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/7ea924/32.png) [@Wolfian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolfian)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-for-those-new-to-monogramming-and-to-nouveau-snobs/368844/54 "2006-08-16T14:28:09Z")
[QUOTE=saoirse] You also have to consider that it is not used the same way it was when the expression was introduced in English. When the upper class used “hoi polloi,” it was meant as a mild insult: “That may be good enough for hoi polloi…” However, it is now used exclusively to mock someone who would have used it back when the experssion had it’s original meaning, so adding another article demonstrates that you absolutely DO NOT know what it means and wouldn’t want to learn. “They think it’s good enough for the hoi polloi, but not for them.” [/QUOTE] Language changes. It doesn’t have to make sense. Get over it. ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-for-those-new-to-monogramming-and-to-nouveau-snobs/368844/55 "2006-08-16T14:29:43Z")
I know ‘the hoi polloi’ is acceptable in English. It still sounds stupid. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-for-those-new-to-monogramming-and-to-nouveau-snobs/368844/56 "2006-08-16T14:50:54Z")
[QUOTE=Excalibre] Then why did ivylass bring it up? Now I’m all confused. ☹ [/QUOTE] One of the LLBean options is a diamond-shape where they put the last initial in the middle. > [@Kyla](#): > > What if you have FOUR initials, like I do? (Blame my parents for hyphenating.) And most good Catholic boys and girls got a confirmation name, making the total four if they were blessed with a middle name to begin with. -GDTG ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-for-those-new-to-monogramming-and-to-nouveau-snobs/368844/57 "2006-08-16T15:12:07Z")
[QUOTE=Wolfian] Language changes. It doesn’t have to make sense. Get over it. [/QUOTE] I agree. That was the point of my post. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-for-those-new-to-monogramming-and-to-nouveau-snobs/368844/58 "2006-08-16T15:41:07Z")
[QUOTE=saoirse] When the upper class used “hoi polloi,” it was meant as a mild insult: “That may be good enough for hoi polloi…” [/QUOTE] You have a point re: its current use\*, but it was really never commonly used without the definite article, so I don’t think including a “the” distinguishes between the original and modern ironic senses. Most of its earliest literary users used the “the”, presumably acknowledging that this would make more sense to the average reader. (How hard did I have to resist using “hoi polloi” there?) - a bit like the way “salubrious” is almost invariably used in a contradictory sense: “This isn’t a very salubrious neighbourhood, darling…” ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-for-those-new-to-monogramming-and-to-nouveau-snobs/368844/59 "2006-08-16T17:27:58Z")
[QUOTE=Wolfian] Be careful entering your pin on it. You might get the HIV virus. [/QUOTE] You mean my PIN number? Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Wolfian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/7ea924/32.png) [@Wolfian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolfian)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-for-those-new-to-monogramming-and-to-nouveau-snobs/368844/60 "2006-08-16T17:28:23Z")
[QUOTE=saoirse] I agree. That was the point of my post. [/QUOTE] Ah, my apologies. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-for-those-new-to-monogramming-and-to-nouveau-snobs/368844.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-for-those-new-to-monogramming-and-to-nouveau-snobs/368844.md?page=4)