# Advice on how to fire someone...ugh **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 18, 2011, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-on-how-to-fire-someone-ugh/593185 "2011-08-18T16:01:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2011, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-on-how-to-fire-someone-ugh/593185/61 "2011-08-20T19:34:10Z")
> [@echo6160](#): > > Hrm…I must be the most callous person on this board. > > I would just say: > > “Hey, remember those performance issues we discussed earlier? They haven’t improved, and you’ve shown me no indication that they will. That’s something this company takes seriously. As much as this really hurts, I need to let you know that your employment is being terminated - effective immediately.” Assuming the OP is in a right-to-work state, there is absolutely no upside from the employer’s point of view in giving a reason for the termination. All that’s required is “we’re going to have to let you go.” If the employer intends to contest unemployment benefits, then it’s “we are terminating you for cause.” ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2011, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-on-how-to-fire-someone-ugh/593185/62 "2011-08-20T19:53:02Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > So what? That’s better for the employer anyway–it may not count against them for unemployment insurance purposes. > > Really the attitude of some people in this thread is rather unbelievable (well, not really, with the SDMB being what it is). If an employer has a bad employee they want to get rid of, the only relevant considerations are how to get rid of the employee as quickly as possible with as little harm to the employer as possible. Agreed, but the OP seemed concerned about the woman’s future. I’ve seen it many times in companies that I’ve worked for where they fired people for misconduct, but didn’t press the challenge to unemployment benefits. Sometimes good business practice isn’t strict adherence to the bottom line. I don’t know what kind of business the OP is in, but do you want it spread around the community that the company fired some poor little 60 year old, church-going good Christian lady for making a couple of minor mistakes and THEN even challenged her unemployment! The heartless bastards! I’ll never do business there again! ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2011, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-on-how-to-fire-someone-ugh/593185/63 "2011-08-20T20:33:59Z")
It should be noted that the employer’s failure to contest unemployment claims has a persuasive effect in terms of other lost wage claims - in a wrongful termination or workers’ compensation suit, for example. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2011, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-on-how-to-fire-someone-ugh/593185/64 "2011-08-20T20:52:25Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > It should be noted that the employer’s failure to contest unemployment claims has a persuasive effect in terms of other lost wage claims - in a wrongful termination or workers’ compensation suit, for example. Persuasive in which way? Good or bad? I can’t imagine what relevance there would be between contesting unemployment benefits in one case versus a workers comp claim for a different employee. The factual situations are completely different. ---
**Author:** ![Dag\_Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@Dag\_Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dag_Otto)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2011, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-on-how-to-fire-someone-ugh/593185/65 "2011-08-20T21:01:46Z")
> [@moejoe](#): > > Today I leaned over her shoulder to look at something on her screen aaaand…got a whiff of the ganja. Bring in a pint of Ben and Jerry’s on Monday. When she helps herself to it, fire her for theft. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2011, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-on-how-to-fire-someone-ugh/593185/66 "2011-08-20T21:09:02Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > Persuasive in which way? Good or bad? I can’t imagine what relevance there would be between contesting unemployment benefits in one case versus a workers comp claim for a different employee. The factual situations are completely different. Goes to whether the employer considered the termination to be for cause. ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2011, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-on-how-to-fire-someone-ugh/593185/67 "2011-08-21T14:51:56Z")
> [@moejoe](#): > > Yes, that was the issue, how do I fire her without ruining her life. She’s getting fired, I just want to be as kind as possible about it. First because she’s a human being and no matter how much she sucks I still think she deserves respect and kindness. Second because I don’t want anyone out there in the world badmouthing the company by saying we fire people in a cruel or careless way, or claiming age/weight discrimination. > > Maybe I should just call in the Bobs and have them fix the glitch. If you don’t want her feelings hurt and you want her to feel respected, and you don’t want the world badmouthing the company, don’t fire her. hh ---
**Author:** ![StGermain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stgermain/32/2868_2.png) [@StGermain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StGermain)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2011, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-on-how-to-fire-someone-ugh/593185/68 "2011-08-29T18:13:34Z")
Any update? StG ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2011, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-on-how-to-fire-someone-ugh/593185/69 "2011-08-29T22:14:55Z")
> [@black\_rabbit](#): > > sturm und drang I’ve never heard this one before. I wonder if it’s the inspiration for Durmstrang. ---
**Author:** ![moejoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@moejoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moejoe)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-on-how-to-fire-someone-ugh/593185/70 "2011-08-30T04:26:22Z")
I’ve been told to move slowly, but steadily. We’ve just made a new hire, so until she’s trained we need the warm body. Even with the new person we’re still short handed. It looks like what my boss wants is a three month process. That’s how long it will take to train the new person and then find a second new hire to cover fired girl’s hours as well. So, there will be meetings with HR and more performance plans and whatnot. It’s incredibly uncomfortable since the office space is really small, I’m counting the days. The advice in this thread has been really helpful though. I’ll be meeting with HR to figure out how to create smart goals for the stupidity issues, and I feel more confident about the eventual meeting of doom. Also, you know, PM me if you’re looking for a low paying admin job in a super cool SF Bay Area nonprofit. ---
**Author:** ![Chef\_Troy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/85f322/32.png) [@Chef\_Troy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chef_Troy)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-on-how-to-fire-someone-ugh/593185/71 "2011-08-30T04:32:31Z")
> [@Inigo\_Montoya](#): > > I’ve never heard this one before. I wonder if it’s the inspiration for Durmstrang. It is, yes. The phrase means “storm and stress,” basically. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-on-how-to-fire-someone-ugh/593185/72 "2011-08-30T05:47:00Z")
> [@Motorgirl](#): > > In my experience with performance issues that lead to a firing, there have been concrete steps to follow. If you have an HR department they can help you with the steps. > > The steps for me have been: > > 1. A series of conversations with the employee about their performance, discussing explicitly what aspects of their performance are falling short - being clear about what needs to be improved, how they can demonstrate improvement and how you will measure that improvement. > > 2. A final conversation in which I state that if performance does not improve by date X, in a,b,c ways, the next step is a written warning and written performance improvement plan, which will be filed with HR. > > 3. Delivery of a written warning and written performance improvement plan which details the performance issues, the performance standard the employee must reach, and concrete, measurable ways to demonstrate improvement. With dates by which they must demonstrate improvement. > > 4. Some number of regular follow-up meetings in which you go over the performance improvement plan and discuss how the employee is or is not making visible measurable progress. Memos after each meeting summarizing the discussion filed with HR. > > 5. A final follow-up meeting in which I state that if performance does not improve by date X, in the ways outlined in the performance improvement plan, the next step is termination. > > 6. Termination. A couple of days prior to the meeting with the employee, notify HR that termination will take place on date Y, so they can do their paperwork and be prepared to receive the employee after your meeting. Meet with the employee, stating only that due lack of demonstrated improvement as outlined in the performance improvement plan, they are terminated immediately. Have a box of tissues and a cardboard box so they can clean out their desk. Take them to their desk, let them get their personal belongings, then deliver them to HR. In some companies HR does the termination conversation, not you. > > It’s a lot of work for the manager, but you owe it to the employee to make sure they understand not only that their performance is inadequate but HOW they can demonstrate improvement. And they deserve an opportunity to fix the problems. Good, except at step 6 do \*\*NOT \*\*give any reason(s) for termination. Just tell them they have been terminated and give them the paperwork involved, plus whatever money they are owed. Sometimes there’s severance pay that usually comes with a waiver where they promise not to sue. If you can do so, make their status “laid off” so that they can get unemployment, that will be a nice gesture. ---
**Author:** ![EvilTOJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee59a6/32.png) [@EvilTOJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EvilTOJ)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 9:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-on-how-to-fire-someone-ugh/593185/73 "2011-08-30T09:10:44Z")
Why not force her into retirement? ---
**Author:** ![moejoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@moejoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moejoe)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-on-how-to-fire-someone-ugh/593185/74 "2011-08-30T14:49:32Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > If you can do so, make their status “laid off” so that they can get unemployment, that will be a nice gesture. This is what we will be doing, purposely overstaffing and then a layoff. She’ll get unemployment and move into retirement. No hard feelings and I get a better team. It’s slower than I would like, but it’s a good solution for everyone. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-on-how-to-fire-someone-ugh/593185/75 "2011-08-30T19:50:47Z")
I’ve found that if one gives good feedback about performance, which you have been doing, the person being terminated isn’t surprised and is almost relieved that it is over. If they are with it enough to know they are not performing, it is stressful. Most people who have never been in management think firing someone is a lot easier than it actually is, and so expect the axe to fall at any minute. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-on-how-to-fire-someone-ugh/593185/76 "2011-08-31T00:52:26Z")
> [@EvilTOJ](#): > > Why not force her into retirement? She’s 60 years old, too young for Social Security and doesn’t have a pension. Mention “retirement” in that context and the OP would be hit with an age discrimination complaint. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/advice-on-how-to-fire-someone-ugh/593185.md?page=3)