# AE vs. BE: use of autumn vs fall **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 2, 2009, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ae-vs-be-use-of-autumn-vs-fall/505066 "2009-08-02T16:08:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ae-vs-be-use-of-autumn-vs-fall/505066/21 "2009-08-03T04:34:53Z")
> [@Cugel](#): > > Stranger to me (I’m Australian) is learning that autumn begins at different times (allowing for NH/SH). Starts on the first of the month here, seems logical, but then you find out it’s a slightly fuzzy start elsewhere. I don’t think that’s so strange. After all, nature does not divide the year into four distinct, equal-length seasons. The transformations in weather that we think of as seasons are continuous and part of a gradual shift as the earth moves on its axis. The only way to split this continuity into four discrete parts is to assign fairly arbitrary starting points. Some countries choose the solstices/equinoxes. These at least have the benefit of being natural markers of time, even though they don’t necessarily correspond very well to the big changes in weather and temperature that we think about with the seasons. Other countries use the beginning of the month. I really think that talking about the “start” and “finish” of the seasons is a sort of pointless exercise, for the most part. Terms like spring, summer, winter and fall are useful as general descriptors of a general time of year, but precision isn’t really necessary for their use. ---
**Author:** ![Cugel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cugel/32/1199_2.png) [@Cugel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cugel)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ae-vs-be-use-of-autumn-vs-fall/505066/22 "2009-08-03T05:46:07Z")
Yeah. That’s why using a simple alignment with the months would seem to make the most sense. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ae-vs-be-use-of-autumn-vs-fall/505066/23 "2009-08-03T06:37:38Z")
Wouldn’t this simply be an example of the linguistic Zipf’s Law in action? “Fall” is a shorter word than “Autumn”, so it would tend to replace the longer word. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ae-vs-be-use-of-autumn-vs-fall/505066/24 "2009-08-03T06:41:27Z")
> [@Cugel](#): > > Stranger to me (I’m Australian) is learning that autumn begins at different times (allowing for NH/SH). Starts on the first of the month here, seems logical, but then you find out it’s a slightly fuzzy start elsewhere. Depends where you are. There’s no noticeable “Autumn” north of Tweed Heads, IMHO; you get “Summer” and “Not Summer”, unless you live Up North in which case it’s “The Wet Season” or “The Dry Season”. But yeah, almost no-one here or in NZ refers to “Fall”, at least in my experience. ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ae-vs-be-use-of-autumn-vs-fall/505066/25 "2009-08-03T07:22:26Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > Wouldn’t this simply be an example of the linguistic Zipf’s Law in action? > “Fall” is a shorter word than “Autumn”, so it would tend to replace the longer word. Conversely, I’ve noticed that “elevator” seems to be making inroads in the UK. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ae-vs-be-use-of-autumn-vs-fall/505066/26 "2009-08-03T07:42:00Z")
About 40 years ago, there arose in the US the notion that there were official starts of the seasons and these were on the soltices/equinoxes. Not sure how it got started, although likely from some almanac. It was promulgated mainly by TV weathermen. It’s an erroneous notion, though. Congress never passed a law dictating the beginnings of the seasons. Nor, AFAIK, did any bureaucracy set a regulaton doing that. Weatherpersons don’t use the word official in this context much these days. Despite that, it seems to have cemented the idea of when the seasons start in this country. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ae-vs-be-use-of-autumn-vs-fall/505066/27 "2009-08-03T08:27:37Z")
You know, the context of the conversation is important. I would never naturally say “fall”, but I might say “fall” if I was talking to Americans in acknowledgment of their usage. Perhaps an American might tend to say “autumn” when talking to the English. **Broomstick** , all that shows is that you are not, in fact, a female (and apparently I’m gay.) ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 8:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ae-vs-be-use-of-autumn-vs-fall/505066/28 "2009-08-03T08:56:23Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Huh? > > Female here - if you ask me to look at the sole of my shoe I pick my foot up in front of my body and look at the bottom - this business of “kick it up behind and look over the shoulder” is… bizarre to me. Like I said, still mostly nonsense (and only ‘mostly’ due to the situation Aspidastra mentions). But possible. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ae-vs-be-use-of-autumn-vs-fall/505066/29 "2009-08-03T16:04:08Z")
I grew up in Philadelphia and I would hardly ever say “autumn”. Maybe if I was talking of “autumn leaf displays”, but probably not. So I would say that use of “autumn” in a simple context is a pretty good indication that the speaker is not American (or Canadian). Universities never have an autumn term, only a fall term. As for the season markers I learned in school that the seasons started at the equinoxes and solstices. Even if Congress has passed no law, that still seems pretty much official. But I just checked my calendar book and discovered, somewhat to my surprise, that although the solstices and equinoxes were listed, there was no claim as to when the seasons started. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ae-vs-be-use-of-autumn-vs-fall/505066/30 "2009-08-03T16:54:13Z")
> [@Markxxx](#): > > While I love clues like that in mystery books, the othe clue I love is “No _real_ American knows the second \*\*verse \*\*of the _Star Spangled Banner_.” > > (snip) > . (my bolding) Wouldn’t that be “stanza”? ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ae-vs-be-use-of-autumn-vs-fall/505066/31 "2009-08-03T17:00:12Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Wouldn’t that be “stanza”? Aaargh! Missed it by _thaaaat_ much! ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ae-vs-be-use-of-autumn-vs-fall/505066/32 "2009-08-03T20:08:23Z")
> [@Markxxx](#): > > As a side note don’t forget the the old “how to tell a man from a woman.” You tell them to look at their soles of their shoes. A man should pick up his foot off the ground and look while a woman would simply stand on her “tip toes” and look at the soles that way. There’s a Spanish legend where the Prince figures out the handsome young knight is a lady because when they’re playing at tossing a ball around, she opens her legs further in order to catch it (as if in a skirt) rather than closing them up. Like yours, it doesn’t work unless both genders wear different clothes. ---
**Author:** ![JeffB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeffb/32/188_2.png) [@JeffB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JeffB)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ae-vs-be-use-of-autumn-vs-fall/505066/33 "2009-08-03T20:51:53Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > There’s a Spanish legend where the Prince figures out the handsome young knight is a lady because when they’re playing at tossing a ball around, she opens her legs further in order to catch it (as if in a skirt) rather than closing them up. > > Like yours, it doesn’t work unless both genders wear different clothes. Mark Twain uses that when Huckleberry Finn is disguised as a girl wearing a dress and an old lady tosses something at him and he closes his legs to catch it. ---
**Author:** ![Doug\_Bowe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df788c/32.png) [@Doug\_Bowe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doug_Bowe)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ae-vs-be-use-of-autumn-vs-fall/505066/34 "2009-08-03T21:13:59Z")
I recall reading years ago that American English sometimes reflects the words in British use pre-1776. The subject of the OP was actually used as an example. “Fall” is the older term. When “Autumn” became more common in British English, the Americans weren’t around for it and the older term stuck. Likewise, the article pointed out, when an American uses the word “mad,” he/she likely means the old British usage…angry. British English has evolved the word to also mean “insane.” ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ae-vs-be-use-of-autumn-vs-fall/505066/35 "2009-08-03T21:15:52Z")
> [@JeffB](#): > > Mark Twain uses that when Huckleberry Finn is disguised as a girl wearing a dress and an old lady tosses something at him and he closes his legs to catch it. I remember that differently (maybe translation error?): The old lady gives Huck a heavy ball to throw against rats/mice in the corner, and he throws overhand (like a boy a baseball) rather than underhand (as girls are usually taught to). Then she asks him if 15 cows are standing on a hill, where they are looking, he answers, all uphill, so she says he knows he really is a country boy, at least. Whenever I see cows in the fields, they are looking everywhere they like (they are also not standing or lying all at the same time, unless it’s really, really hot at noon, then they lie in the shade). ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ae-vs-be-use-of-autumn-vs-fall/505066/36 "2009-08-03T21:44:32Z")
I wrongly thought that only “fall” was used in the US, and that “autumn” would be familiar to Americans, if at all, as a Britishism. So I was very surprised when I heard a US TV weatherman refer to “autumn”. Now, having read this thread, it’s clear to me that both words are in use in the US. The converse is not true, however: “fall” is not used in Britain or Ireland. ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ae-vs-be-use-of-autumn-vs-fall/505066/37 "2009-08-03T21:51:55Z")
> [@dtilque](#): > > About 40 years ago, there arose in the US the notion that there were official starts of the seasons and these were on the soltices/equinoxes. Not sure how it got started, although likely from some almanac. It was promulgated mainly by TV weathermen. > > It’s an erroneous notion, though. Congress never passed a law dictating the beginnings of the seasons. Nor, AFAIK, did any bureaucracy set a regulaton doing that. I don’t know why an act of Congress would be needed. They aren’t the boss of EVERYTHING. ---
**Author:** ![Rucksinator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/898d66/32.png) [@Rucksinator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rucksinator)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ae-vs-be-use-of-autumn-vs-fall/505066/38 "2009-08-03T21:55:40Z")
It’s kinda like “Autumn” is the proper name (and the name that I learned in kindergarten), and everybody knows this; but “fall” is the nickname. This is quite different from the situation with lift/elavator. [hijack] > [@Tengu](#): > > The version I’m familiar with - still mostly nonsense, but at least anatomically feasible - a man will move his foot around to the front, whereas a woman will kick it up behind her and look over her shoulder. If you can’t tell a man from a woman, and you don’t feel comfortable doing the Crocodile Dundee method, and he’s not wearing a dress so you can’t do the Tom Sawyer (or was in Huck Finn?) method, was to ask them to check their fingernails. Women will hold their hands out straight with their palms away from them. Men will curl their fingers in with their palms facing towards them. [ETA: I really should have refreshed and read through before posting to a thread I opened yesterday.] ---
**Author:** ![AppallingGael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9bd4f/32.png) [@AppallingGael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AppallingGael)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2009, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ae-vs-be-use-of-autumn-vs-fall/505066/39 "2009-08-04T00:02:15Z")
> [@Candyman74](#): > > From the UK side of the dscussion, npnod here would say “fall”. It’s always “autumn”; it took me quite a while when the internet first appeared getting used to hearing Americans saying “fall”. So when you intentionally trip somebody in the hallway, you say “have a nice trip, see you next autumn”? ---
**Author:** ![Apollyon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/apollyon/32/4238_2.png) [@Apollyon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollyon)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2009, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ae-vs-be-use-of-autumn-vs-fall/505066/40 "2009-08-04T00:05:40Z")
> [@Colophon](#): > > Conversely, I’ve noticed that “elevator” seems to be making inroads in the UK. Heard both used here too… but I always get a chuckle when I see the “Schindler” name on lifts… Schindler’s lift. Yeah… I’m easily amused. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ae-vs-be-use-of-autumn-vs-fall/505066.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ae-vs-be-use-of-autumn-vs-fall/505066.md?page=3)