# Aesthetically pleasing aircraft that flew poorly and vice versa **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 18, 2018, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aesthetically-pleasing-aircraft-that-flew-poorly-and-vice-versa/810777 "2018-03-18T15:15:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aesthetically-pleasing-aircraft-that-flew-poorly-and-vice-versa/810777/61 "2018-03-23T03:50:37Z")
> [@gnoitall](#): > > Another data point: one of the other nicknames of the B-26 was the “Baltimore whore”, because Martin’s main plant was in the Baltimore area and, like a whore, the B-26 was pretty, fast-looking, and had no visible means of support (i.e., nobody understood how that aircraft could fly). No visible means of support? Ironing boards! (According to a Bob Stevens cartoon depicting the wings.) ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aesthetically-pleasing-aircraft-that-flew-poorly-and-vice-versa/810777/62 "2018-03-23T03:54:21Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > No visible means of support? Ironing boards! (According to a Bob Stevens cartoon depicting the wings.) Haha, I have a book of Bob Stevens’ cartoons called “There I Was, Flat On My Back…” that I found at a used bookstore, a totally random find, I didn’t know who he was and wasn’t looking for military cartoon books specifically, it was just lying there and it looked quirky, so I bought it. Were those cartoons from some kind of official intra-military newspaper or something, or was it more of an “underground zine” kind of thing for military pilots? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aesthetically-pleasing-aircraft-that-flew-poorly-and-vice-versa/810777/63 "2018-03-23T13:50:32Z")
> [@Jacquernagy](#): > > Haha, I have a book of Bob Stevens’ cartoons called “There I Was, Flat On My Back…” that I found at a used bookstore, a totally random find, I didn’t know who he was and wasn’t looking for military cartoon books specifically, it was just lying there and it looked quirky, so I bought it. Were those cartoons from some kind of official intra-military newspaper or something, or was it more of an “underground zine” kind of thing for military pilots? I got my copy from Barnes Aviation (Bill and Shouling Barnes, son and daughter-in-law of ‘Pancho’ Barnes) in the late-'70s. I also have _More There I was…_, _Prop Wash_, and _If You Read Me, Rock The Tower!_ I’ll have to try to find them. [Bob Stevens](http://www.goodlanding.nl/cms/view/94) was a pilot in and after WWII, attaining the rank of Colonel. Per the link, Stevens flew ‘almost every fighter in the WWII arenal (except the P-39).’ After retiring from the USAF, he became a cartoonist. His cartoons appeared in _Air Force_ magazine. Stevens died in 1994. I wish I could find a really good biography, and a collection of his works on the Internet [One of my favourites](https://www.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/comments/5o0uu4/bob_stevens_jun_1973_one_day_over_france_shortly/). ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aesthetically-pleasing-aircraft-that-flew-poorly-and-vice-versa/810777/64 "2018-03-23T14:14:52Z")
Errata: ‘Arsenal’, not ‘arenal’. ---
**Author:** ![swampspruce](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/swampspruce/32/261_2.png) [@swampspruce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/swampspruce)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aesthetically-pleasing-aircraft-that-flew-poorly-and-vice-versa/810777/65 "2018-03-23T14:31:31Z")
That made me chuckle, the typo and the cartoon! Further to the Osprey thing; the prototype the Osprey was based on was almost the same size as the Dynavert initially. It grew as more was demanded of it. From Wikipedia: XV-15 General characteristics ``` Crew: two (pilot, copilot) Length: 42 ft 1 in (12.83 m Wingspan: 57 ft 2 in (17.42 m) with turning rotors) Rotor diameter: 25 ft (7.62 m) Height: 12 ft 8 in (3.86 m) Airfoil: NACA 64A015 Empty weight: 10,083 lb (4,574 kg) Max. takeoff weight: 13,000 lb (6,000 kg) Engine power ratings: 1,550 shp (1,156 kW) normal takeoff power (10 min max) 1,802 shp (1,354 kW) emergency power (2 min max) Fuel weight: 1,436 lb (651 kg) Powerplant: 2 × Avco Lycoming LTC1K-4K (modified T53-L-13B) turboshaft engine, 1,550 shp (1,156 kW) each ``` Performance ``` Maximum speed: 300 knots (345 mph, 557 km/h) Stall speed: 100 knots when in airplane mode () Range: 445 nmi (515 mi, 825 km) Service ceiling: 29,500 ft (8,840 m) Disc loading: 13.2 lb/ft² (73 kg/m²[10]) Power loading: 1.35 kg/kW[10] Hovering altitude: 8,800 ft (2,635 m) out of ground effect ``` CL-84 General characteristics ``` Crew: 2 Capacity: 12 passengers Length: 47 ft 3.5 in (14.415 m) Wingspan: 34 ft 4 in (10.46 m) Height: 14 ft 3 in (4.34 m) Wing area: 233.3 sq ft (21.67 m2) Airfoil: NACA 633-418 Empty weight: 8,417 lb (3,818 kg) Max takeoff weight: 14,500 lb (6,577 kg) (STOL), 12,600 lb (5,710 kg) (VTOL) Maximum width over propeller tips:34 ft 8 in (10.56 m) Maximum height over propellers during wing tilt: 17 ft 1½ in (5.22 m) Powerplant: 2 × Lycoming T53 shaft-turbines, 1,500 shp (1,100 kW) each Main rotor diameter: 14 ft 0 in (4.27 m) Propellers: 4-bladed, 14 ft 0 in (4.27 m) diameter ``` Performance ``` Maximum speed: 321 mph (517 km/h; 279 kn) Cruise speed: 301 mph (484 km/h; 262 kn) Never exceed speed: 415 mph (668 km/h; 361 kn) Range: 421 mi (366 nmi; 678 km) with max wing fuel, VTOL, & 10% reserves Rate of climb: 4,200 ft/min (21 m/s) Disk loading: 195 kg/m²[13] Power loading: 1.35 kg/kW ``` ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aesthetically-pleasing-aircraft-that-flew-poorly-and-vice-versa/810777/66 "2018-03-23T16:36:35Z")
> [@Jacquernagy](#): > > [This](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LTV_XC-142) was more similar to the Osprey. And it was in fact designed as a replacement for the CH-37, a large helicopter that was used in Vietnam. It could probably have been developed further into a successful aircraft, but the design was not pursued beyond the prototype stage. I note that one of the problems was the strength of the downwash, and that the Osprey has two really big rotor/propellers instead of four medium-sized ones. That might make the difference because one complaint about the XC-142 is that it wouldn’t be practical to use except on prepared landing pads. ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aesthetically-pleasing-aircraft-that-flew-poorly-and-vice-versa/810777/67 "2018-03-23T18:03:26Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > I got my copy from Barnes Aviation (Bill and Shouling Barnes, son and daughter-in-law of ‘Pancho’ Barnes) in the late-'70s. I also have _More There I was…_, _Prop Wash_, and _If You Read Me, Rock The Tower!_ I’ll have to try to find them. > > [Bob Stevens](http://www.goodlanding.nl/cms/view/94) was a pilot in and after WWII, attaining the rank of Colonel. Per the link, Stevens flew ‘almost every fighter in the WWII arenal (except the P-39).’ After retiring from the USAF, he became a cartoonist. His cartoons appeared in _Air Force_ magazine. Stevens died in 1994. I wish I could find a really good biography, and a collection of his works on the Internet > > [One of my favourites](https://www.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/comments/5o0uu4/bob_stevens_jun_1973_one_day_over_france_shortly/). There’s something about WWII air combat that just blows my mind…it’s like, planes had barely existed for a few decades, and suddenly the whole country re-aligned its economy and industry and military towards cranking out giant numbers of these machines and training guys to fly them, and then just like that there was this insanely gigantic aerial war with a whole mythology of customs and traditions and skills and shared experiences…when I think about it all, it feels more like some fictional mythological epic than real life, yet there are still guys walking around now who participated in it all. It’s crazy! It’s crazier than _Star Wars_, which was clearly inspired by it. ---
**Author:** ![MikeF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MikeF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeF)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aesthetically-pleasing-aircraft-that-flew-poorly-and-vice-versa/810777/68 "2018-03-23T18:12:28Z")
And the winner is… [Gee Bee Model R Super Sportster by Emigepa on DeviantArt](https://emigepa.deviantart.com/art/Gee-Bee-Model-R-Super-Sportster-290332120) (Not an actual photo but it/was is a real thing) > **[Granville Gee Bee Model R Super Sportster](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gee_Bee_Model_R)** > > The Gee Bee Model R Super Sportster was a special-purpose racing aircraft made by Granville Brothers Aircraft of Springfield, Massachusetts at the now-abandoned Springfield Airport. Gee Bee stands for Granville Brothers. > The 1932 R-1 and its sister plane, the R-2, were the successors of the previous year's Thompson Trophy-winning Model Z. > Assistant Chief Engineer Howell "Pete" Miller and Zantford "Granny" Granville spent three days of wind tunnel testing at NYU with aeronautical engineering p... ---
**Author:** ![swampspruce](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/swampspruce/32/261_2.png) [@swampspruce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/swampspruce)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aesthetically-pleasing-aircraft-that-flew-poorly-and-vice-versa/810777/69 "2018-03-23T19:18:49Z")
But the Gee Bee is ugly and dangerous… ;D ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aesthetically-pleasing-aircraft-that-flew-poorly-and-vice-versa/810777/70 "2018-03-23T19:39:12Z")
> [@Jacquernagy](#): > > There’s something about WWII air combat that just blows my mind…it’s like, planes had barely existed for a few decades, and suddenly the whole country re-aligned its economy and industry and military towards cranking out giant numbers of these machines and training guys to fly them, and then just like that there was this insanely gigantic aerial war with a whole mythology of customs and traditions and skills and shared experiences…when I think about it all, it feels more like some fictional mythological epic than real life, yet there are still guys walking around now who participated in it all. It’s crazy! It’s crazier than _Star Wars_, which was clearly inspired by it. I agree one the importance of aircraft in WWII. Boeing submitted plans for what would be the B-29 in 1940. Why wasn’t development of aircraft accelerated? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aesthetically-pleasing-aircraft-that-flew-poorly-and-vice-versa/810777/71 "2018-03-23T19:40:31Z")
> [@swampspruce](#): > > But the Gee Bee is ugly and dangerous… ;D Indeed. I built a model of it when I was a kid. I have no idea why. I believe it was the only non military aircraft that I built. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aesthetically-pleasing-aircraft-that-flew-poorly-and-vice-versa/810777/72 "2018-03-23T19:42:41Z")
> [@Jacquernagy](#): > > …(Not to get too political, but [political stuff]\*… [\*which I believe is agreeable to all as fair ellipses substitution under the new SD rules] 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aesthetically-pleasing-aircraft-that-flew-poorly-and-vice-versa/810777/73 "2018-03-23T19:49:30Z")
> [@MikeF](#): > > And the winner is… > > …[Photo of replica being flown upside down:] > > [Granville Gee Bee Model R Super Sportster - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gee_Bee_Model_R) That is the cutest airplane I’ve ever seen, much more than the Guppy with it’s unsettling size. It looks like a little toy piggy on its back waiting for a tickle. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aesthetically-pleasing-aircraft-that-flew-poorly-and-vice-versa/810777/74 "2018-03-23T19:51:31Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > That is the cutest airplane I’ve ever seen, much more than the Guppy with it’s unsettling size. It looks like a little toy piggy on its back waiting for a tickle. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aesthetically-pleasing-aircraft-that-flew-poorly-and-vice-versa/810777/75 "2018-03-23T19:52:55Z")
I stand by my decision. Pistols at dawn. ETA: I built a model of the SR-71 when I was a kid. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aesthetically-pleasing-aircraft-that-flew-poorly-and-vice-versa/810777/76 "2018-03-23T20:04:44Z")
> [@Jacquernagy](#): > > Haha, yeah that one is notorious. (Not to get too political, but as an aside, I like Bob Dornan - though I don’t agree with him politically - for giving it to Newt Gingrich but good, and also for participating in King’s March on Washington at a time when it was risky, to say the least, for a young white military officer to do so.) > [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Originally Posted by Jacquernagy View Post > > …(Not to get too political, but [political stuff]\*… [\*which I believe is agreeable to all as fair ellipses substitution under the new SD rules] > > 🙂 **Moderator Note** **Leo Bloom** , no it’s not acceptable since it not only changes the sense of the original post, but you are using the edit to poke fun at the original poster. No warning issued, but don’t play games with the quote function. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aesthetically-pleasing-aircraft-that-flew-poorly-and-vice-versa/810777/77 "2018-03-23T20:13:35Z")
I’m sorry for bringing politics into it in the first place ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aesthetically-pleasing-aircraft-that-flew-poorly-and-vice-versa/810777/78 "2018-03-23T22:02:18Z")
> [@swampspruce](#): > > But the Gee Bee is ugly and dangerous… ;D Somewhere online I once read the account of one of the pilots who flew it. He said something like “For an hour I flew it and for an hour it tried to kill me”. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aesthetically-pleasing-aircraft-that-flew-poorly-and-vice-versa/810777/79 "2018-03-23T22:14:25Z")
> [@Jacquernagy](#): > > I’m sorry for bringing politics into it in the first place And I’m sorry for teasing you. No opinion expressed pro- or con on the political content itself–I merely remembered when, a long time ago I introduced a side comment similarly in GQ, and not a mod but another poster jumped down my throat. I guess I gotta go back to ranting in Report Posts about how the thread is being derailed by extremists… Best, Leo ---
**Author:** ![Didactylos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a183cd/32.png) [@Didactylos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Didactylos)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aesthetically-pleasing-aircraft-that-flew-poorly-and-vice-versa/810777/80 "2018-03-23T22:44:59Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I agree one the importance of aircraft in WWII. Boeing submitted plans for what would be the B-29 in 1940. Why wasn’t development of aircraft accelerated? The B-29 is often described as the most expensive and complicated weapons program of WW2. Features like pressurised cabin and remote controlled guns were the bleeding edge in the early 40’s. The 4 28-cylinder Duplex cyclone engines were the biggest and most powerful ever seen. In 1944 when operations began they were rated for replacement after 75 hours of flight, some of the cylinders after 25 hours. The development of the B-29 already _was_ accelerated to breaking point. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aesthetically-pleasing-aircraft-that-flew-poorly-and-vice-versa/810777.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aesthetically-pleasing-aircraft-that-flew-poorly-and-vice-versa/810777.md?page=5)