# Affirmative Action In Major League Sports **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 29, 2003, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmative-action-in-major-league-sports/191722 "2003-07-29T18:51:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Schoir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ac91a4/32.png) [@Schoir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schoir)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmative-action-in-major-league-sports/191722/1 "2003-07-29T18:51:36Z")
Earlier this week, the Houston Astros released the final African-American baseball player on their team. On this morning’s sports-talk radio show, this led to a discussion about the under-representation of African-Americans across major league baseball. Statistics were cited supporting a reduction in African-Americans in baseball over the past ten to twenty years to its present state of seven percent of total players. Opinions were offered back and forth as to who bore fault for the the lack of African-American players in baseball. Setting aside for the moment who is to blame, are we approaching a point where major league sports (formerly the model of meritocracy) is approaching an unspoken policy of affirmative action? Think about it: the National Football League assesses a five figure fine against Matt Millen of the Detroit Lions because he did not interview any African-American head coaching candidates, even though he had no intention of hiring anyone other than Steve Mariucci. Outcries are heard about the lack of African-American coaches in football and basketball. Are we approaching the point where the make-up of sports teams (from management on down) must accurately reflect the percentage of race in this country? Is this a good thing? If it is a good thing, should we begin an affirmative program to increase the number of American white males on National Basketball Association teams? What about non-American white and non-African-American players on National Football League teams? How about anyone other than northerners, Canadians, and eastern Europeans on National Hockey League teams? ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmative-action-in-major-league-sports/191722/2 "2003-07-29T20:39:20Z")
The decline in black major league ballplayers has little or nothing to do with racism. It’s not as if there are loads of promising young black baseball players whom scouts are ignoring. Rather, for years now, black Americans have been losing interest in baseball. Note that the major leagues aren’t getting whiter! Rather, they’re getting browner! As blacks gradually abandon baseball, their places are being taken by Latino and (increasingly) Asian ballplayers. The problem in the NFL is different. The great majority of players in the NFL are black, and that’s been true for many years now. The question is, why are there so few black coaches and executives in the NFL? I don’t think there’s much blatant racism in football. That is, I don’t think the NFL’s owners are closet Klansmen who hate blacks or regard them as inferior. But I DO think that there’s far too much cronyism, and that owners and managers tend to promote people they relate to and feel comfortable with. And they’re more likely to feel comfortable with other white guys. ---
**Author:** ![HookerChemical](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/278dde/32.png) [@HookerChemical](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HookerChemical)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmative-action-in-major-league-sports/191722/3 "2003-07-29T20:44:34Z")
Both cases seem a little silly to me. The number of blacks in the majors may have dropped in recent years, but it’s a safe bet the number of Latino players has increased. With overseas scouting on the rise (Nomo, Ishi, Matsui, etc…), I’d expect most demographics to take a hit while the percentage of Asians rises. Millen did the right thing signing Mooch. He’s a damn fine coach and I’m pissed that the 49er didn’t bring him back. He was clearly the best coach on the market. I’m not a big fan of the required interview process; some great coaches have been horrible interviews. Even with the rule, it’s easy enough for a team to call a black coach for an interview just for show. I think Millen treid to interview a number of black coaches, but they all refused knowing Mariucchi would get the job. I don’t see the issue going very far. A team may get slapped with a fine now and then like Millen, but most of the nation is reasonable enough to recognise that there isn’t any more problem in sports than there is in the rest of the country. Yeah, there may be occational room for improvement, but we’re getting there. ---
**Author:** ![IUHomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90db22/32.png) [@IUHomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IUHomer)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2003, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmative-action-in-major-league-sports/191722/4 "2003-07-31T04:40:40Z")
The problem in coaching many times goes beyond racism. The coaches keep rehiring the same set of guys that have failed before with other teams instead of going after new coaches. Thats why the same set of names float around for every job opening. In Detroit’s case, you can’t blame them for wanting Mooch because he is a proven winner. Sometimes you just really have to wonder why some of these guys keep getting hired, though. ``` The Detroit fine was stupid. If you do bring in a coach to interview, its almost like an insult because they know they aren't going to get the job. I think Jerry Jones basically did this with a few people before he hired Parcells....which again was a good choice. Its really just a "token" interview though and does little to promote these coaches for future jobs. ``` ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2003, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmative-action-in-major-league-sports/191722/5 "2003-07-31T12:07:14Z")
True. There was no selection process going on. The Lions knew who they wanted and went to him first. Should he have declined, and the lions actually had to search for a coach… I don’t think the Lions were wrong in what they did. I agree. ‘Token’ interviews are stupid AND insulting. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2003, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmative-action-in-major-league-sports/191722/6 "2003-07-31T13:00:42Z")
The number of blacks in the major leagues is almost exactly proportional to their number in the population of the countries they come from. The percentage of Latino players, of course, is way out of proportion to their numbers. As to the Lions issue, I agree it does seem stupid, but the Lions voluntarily agreed to abide by that rule, so they brought it upon themselves. ---
**Author:** ![2sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e47774/32.png) [@2sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2sense)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2003, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmative-action-in-major-league-sports/191722/7 "2003-07-31T23:49:47Z")
Well I for one suspect that prejudice helped get Mariucci the job. I don’t doubt the Fords for not going through the motions of interviewing minority candidates but for excluding them from consideration in the first place. What has Mariucci got that Denny Green hasn’t? Green had more success with a whole lot less front office help than is available in San Fran. If he were Dennis White would the Fords have decided to trade in I-Can’t-Wait-To-Forget-His-Name before Mariucci ever got the axe? I have suspicions but we don’t know. What we do know is that they haven’t hired a minority head coach in the 40+ years they have controlled the team. And it’s not like the coaches we did have were anything to brag about. We have won only one playoff game in that same span. Fine the Fords! Better yet, suspend them! Also I posted some stuff on racial preferences in sports in a [IMHO thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=187890) some time back if anyone is interested. I have also heard of players complaining that minorities could play baseball but only if they were good enough to be out on the field. White guys though, only have to be good enough to sit on the bench to make a MLB team. So far as I know these claims are unsubstantiated. ---
**Author:** ![\_O\_o\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/_/9d8465/32.png) [@\_O\_o\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_O_o_1)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2003, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmative-action-in-major-league-sports/191722/8 "2003-08-01T01:20:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by 2sense \* > \*\*Well I for one suspect that prejudice helped get Mariucci the job. \*\* you are incorrect. when millen was hired to run the team in early 2001, he wanted to hire mariucci then. but mariucci had a contract with S.F…he recommended marty mornhinweg, as morningweg was mariucci’s offensive coordinator…millen hired morningweg based upon this… > [@](#): > > I don’t doubt the Fords for not going through the motions of interviewing minority candidates but for excluding them from consideration in the first place. the only reason morningweg was fired was because mariucci was available… > [@](#): > > What has Mariucci got that Denny Green hasn’t? mariucci has always been the coach that millen wanted. > [@](#): > > Green had more success with a whole lot less front office help than is available in San Fran. Green sexually assaulted his secretary in minnesota, green aproached the lions last year about the coaching job and said he wanted to be coach and GM (which is millen’s title), he was rebuffed because of these issues. you obviously do not have the proper knowledge to argue this. > [@](#): > > If he were Dennis White would the Fords have decided to trade in I-Can’t-Wait-To-Forget-His-Name before Mariucci ever got the axe? once again, millen said morningweg would be retained directly after the season…this was after dennis green aproached bill ford jr. about wanting to coach the team…green wanted morningweg and millens jobs…that is why he was rebuffed… once again, morningweg was not fired until mariucci was available…that was the only reason he was fired. > [@](#): > > I have suspicions but we don’t know. your suspicions are compleetely false…and yeah, we do know. > [@](#): > > What we do know is that they haven’t hired a minority head coach in the 40+ years they have controlled the team. neither has pittsburgh, and their owner (rooney) is the one who basically defined the fine millen was given…the lions have 6 black assistant coaches, by the way. by the way, other NFL teams who have never had a black head coach: buffalo bills, miami dolphins, new england patriots, cleveland browns, pittsburgh steelers, jacksonville jaguars, houston oilers, denver broncos, kansas city chiefs, sandiego chargers, dallas cowboys, new york giants, chicago bears, atlanta falcons, carolina panthers, new orleans saints, arizona cardinals, st.louis rams, sanfrancisco 49ers, seattle seahawks. ---
**Author:** ![\_O\_o\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/_/9d8465/32.png) [@\_O\_o\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_O_o_1)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2003, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmative-action-in-major-league-sports/191722/9 "2003-08-01T01:20:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by 2sense \* > \*\*Well I for one suspect that prejudice helped get Mariucci the job. \*\* you are incorrect. when millen was hired to run the team in early 2001, he wanted to hire mariucci then. but mariucci had a contract with S.F…he recommended marty mornhinweg, as morningweg was mariucci’s offensive coordinator…millen hired morningweg based upon this… > [@](#): > > I don’t doubt the Fords for not going through the motions of interviewing minority candidates but for excluding them from consideration in the first place. the only reason morningweg was fired was because mariucci was available… > [@](#): > > What has Mariucci got that Denny Green hasn’t? mariucci has always been the coach that millen wanted. > [@](#): > > Green had more success with a whole lot less front office help than is available in San Fran. Green sexually assaulted his secretary in minnesota, green aproached the lions last year about the coaching job and said he wanted to be coach and GM (which is millen’s title), he was rebuffed because of these issues. you obviously do not have the proper knowledge to argue this. > [@](#): > > If he were Dennis White would the Fords have decided to trade in I-Can’t-Wait-To-Forget-His-Name before Mariucci ever got the axe? once again, millen said morningweg would be retained directly after the season…this was after dennis green aproached bill ford jr. about wanting to coach the team…green wanted morningweg and millens jobs…that is why he was rebuffed… once again, morningweg was not fired until mariucci was available…that was the only reason he was fired. > [@](#): > > I have suspicions but we don’t know. your suspicions are compleetely false…and yeah, we do know. > [@](#): > > What we do know is that they haven’t hired a minority head coach in the 40+ years they have controlled the team. neither has pittsburgh, and their owner (rooney) is the one who basically defined the fine millen was given…the lions have 6 black assistant coaches, by the way. by the way, other NFL teams who have never had a black head coach: buffalo bills, miami dolphins, new england patriots, cleveland browns, pittsburgh steelers, jacksonville jaguars, houston oilers, denver broncos, kansas city chiefs, sandiego chargers, dallas cowboys, new york giants, chicago bears, atlanta falcons, carolina panthers, new orleans saints, arizona cardinals, st.louis rams, sanfrancisco 49ers, seattle seahawks. ---
**Author:** ![2sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e47774/32.png) [@2sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2sense)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2003, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmative-action-in-major-league-sports/191722/10 "2003-08-02T21:13:41Z")
I think you should examine your beliefs more rigorously. Just because you want to believe something doesn’t make it so. How can we “know” that prejudice had nothing to do with the decision made by the Fords? Just because they wanted Mariucci doesn’t exlude racism. They could, along the lines of **astorian** ’s post, feel more comfortable with him partly because he is white. Unless you have some mindreading talent or other “special” knowledge you aren’t sharing? I also think you are naive to believe that Matt Millen has any say in who coaches the Lions or on any other substansive questions for that matter. He is a joke and the Fords aren’t laughing any more. I find it more likely, and several Detroit sportswritters have made the assertion as well, that Mariucci will be the _de facto_ GM for the Lions, exactly the role Denny Green could have filled. I am unfamiliar with any allegations of sexual assault on the latter’s part but even if they do exist then there is a difference between allegations and proof. I suggest you look into the matter a bit more closely. In reaching reasonable conclusions it helps not to be convinced you already have the answers before you ask any questions. ---
**Author:** ![Paco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a6a055/32.png) [@Paco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paco)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2003, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmative-action-in-major-league-sports/191722/11 "2003-08-02T21:44:23Z")
> [@](#): > > the National Football League assesses a five figure fine against Matt Millen I realize this is kinda trivial, but the fine was actually $200,000, or six figures. > [@](#): > > I have also heard of players complaining that minorities could play baseball but only if they were good enough to be out on the field. White guys though, only have to be good enough to sit on the bench to make a MLB team. What is the point of this kind of blatant racism in a debate thread? You can’t say things like this, and then in the end pop a little " these claims are unsubstantiated." That has no place in a debate. ---
**Author:** ![Windwalker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/5e9695/32.png) [@Windwalker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Windwalker)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2003, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmative-action-in-major-league-sports/191722/12 "2003-08-03T03:06:16Z")
It is extremely difficult to say that there is discriminatory hiring in major league sports, seeing how minorities constitute a greater percentage of many major league sports than their percentage in the greater population. In some (NBA), it’s hugely out of proportion. Also, owners and management have a vested interest in doing as well as possible, namely trying to get the best players possible. Sure there may be a racist asshole or two in a given organization, but by and large, making money takes precedence for ownership and winning takes precedence for management, which leads to color-blindness. As for management, I don’t know much about other sports, but baseball managers and coaches largely come from past players, and there are a healthy number of minorities in those positions. Is one particular team discrimantory (like the Houston Astros)? I have no idea, but there doesn’t seem to be much evidence to support a major-league-wide conspiracy or racism. ---
**Author:** ![Schoir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ac91a4/32.png) [@Schoir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schoir)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2003, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmative-action-in-major-league-sports/191722/13 "2003-08-03T22:11:04Z")
[This](http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/inside_game/roy_johnson/news/2003/08/01/pass_the_word/) article makes my point for me. The author takes great pains to establish the liberal attitude of Lions owner William Clay Ford (and his family) toward African-Americans but then takes it all away when he excoriates Ford and says he should simply pay the fine. Ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2003, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmative-action-in-major-league-sports/191722/14 "2003-08-03T23:43:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by 2sense \* > \*\*I think you should examine your beliefs more rigorously. Just because you want to believe something doesn’t make it so. How can we “know” that prejudice had nothing to do with the decision made by the Fords? Just because they wanted Mariucci doesn’t exlude racism. They could, along the lines of **astorian** ’s post, feel more comfortable with him partly because he is white. Unless you have some mindreading talent or other “special” knowledge you aren’t sharing?.. > > …In reaching reasonable conclusions it helps not to be convinced you already have the answers before you ask any questions. \*\* Pot. Kettle. Black. Let’s look at your very first sentence. > [@](#): > > I think you should examine your beliefs more rigorously. Just because you want to believe something doesn’t make it so. Agreed. Just because you want to believe it was a racially motivated hire doesn’t make it so. Next sentence: > [@](#): > > How can we “know” that prejudice had nothing to do with the decision made by the Fords? How can you possibly know that prejudice had anything to do with the decision made by the Fords? You can’t. If you say you can I’m gonna need substantially more evidence than “Well, I think it was racist”. Next sentence: > [@](#): > > Just because they wanted Mariucci doesn’t exlude racism. Sure it does. He was the coach that they wanted, period. They didn’t want Dennis Green, yet you seem certain that they did even though they said from the very beginning that Mariucci was their guy. It’s not Mariucci’s fault that he’s white anymore than it’s Dennis Green’s fault that he’s black. > [@](#): > > Unless you have some mindreading talent or other “special” knowledge you aren’t sharing? Do you have any “special” knowledge? Again, if you do, pony it up. And the last part: > [@](#): > > In reaching reasonable conclusions it helps not to be convinced you already have the answers before you ask any questions. In deconstructing a post this stupid I would be remiss if I didn’t give some part of it the rolleyes. So, here we go: :rolleyes: to the last part where you are suggesting that, all evidence to the contrary, he didn’t do his research because he didn’t agree with you conclusion. We could look at this all day long, and all day long you’d still be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![St.Urho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8e7dd6/32.png) [@St.Urho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/St.Urho)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2003, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmative-action-in-major-league-sports/191722/15 "2003-08-04T05:02:41Z")
> [@](#): > > What has Mariucci got that Denny Green hasn’t? In addition to what others have said, Denny Green lost control of his team in general and Randy Moss in particular during his last season in Minnesota. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2003, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmative-action-in-major-league-sports/191722/16 "2003-08-04T05:22:14Z")
Oh yeah, I forgot. In regards to Pittsburgh, they have had exactly two coaches since 1969. I hardly think that could be considered a racist policy. They simply don’t change coaches. It’s kinda hard to break in at the top when the top never changes. ---
**Author:** ![Roger\_Mexico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f6c823/32.png) [@Roger\_Mexico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roger_Mexico)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2003, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmative-action-in-major-league-sports/191722/17 "2003-08-04T06:47:58Z")
Oh. I thought this thread was going to be about token white guys in the NBA. ---
**Author:** ![Schoir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ac91a4/32.png) [@Schoir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schoir)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2003, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmative-action-in-major-league-sports/191722/18 "2003-08-04T11:54:59Z")
**Roger\_Mexico** said: > [@](#): > > I thought this thread was going to be about token white guys in the NBA. It could be, couldn’t it? For too long, a certain race of talented people have been excluded from the rosters of N.B.A. teams. Coincidence or purposeful racism? ---
**Author:** ![2sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e47774/32.png) [@2sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2sense)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2003, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmative-action-in-major-league-sports/191722/19 "2003-08-05T21:17:55Z")
You should read more closely before clawing at the reply button, **Airman Doors, USAF**. Nowhere do I conclude that prejudice influenced the decision to hire Mariucci. I have my suspicions but no proof so I didn’t irresponsibly label the Ford’s as bigots. Hence it is _not_ hypocritical or ironic for me to admonish others for jumping to conclusions. Nor is it false to point out that just because the Fords specifically wanted Mariucci doesn’t exlude the possibility of prejudice. As I make clear a preference for white coaches could be the reason, or part of the reason, that Mariucci is such a hot prospect. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2003, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmative-action-in-major-league-sports/191722/20 "2003-08-05T21:42:34Z")
Are you kidding? Two can play at this game. For instance… I suspect you’re a bigot. From the tone of your posts I get that you think that Denny Green was discriminated against, when he in fact was not. There, now, you can’t say that I called you a bigot, since I merely “suspected” you of it. :rolleyes: There, now that that lunacy is out of the way, give me a straight answer. Was Steve Mariucci’s hiring discriminatory, in your opinion? The answers here are Yes and No. None of this stupid wordplay you seem to want to engage in, just a straight answer. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/affirmative-action-in-major-league-sports/191722.md?page=2)